From perttu.laatola sunpoint.net Fri Jun 6 03:32:40 2003 From: perttu.laatola sunpoint.net (Perttu Laatola) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:43 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] [MP4IF Discuss] comparison between license terms? Message-ID: <200306052332.h55NWeA25976@hki-web-1.sunpoint.net> Dear Sirs, do you have knowledge if there would exist a comparison between the licensing terms of MPEG-4, Windows Media 9 and Real Video 9? What are you viewpoints, if one thinks IP datacasting, which of the above-mentioned technologies would offer the best terms in licensing? And how applicable would the solution then be? Thank you for any further info, Plaasola - Sunpoint.net ilmoittaa: Sunpoint.net tarjoaa kaikille rekisteröityneille käyttäjilleen kuukausimaksuttoman Internet -yhteyden (pvm). http://www.sunpoint.net/SunAds/click.htm?mode=footer&id=71&jump=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sunpoint.net From rob.koenen m4if.org Sat Jun 7 11:56:58 2003 From: rob.koenen m4if.org (Rob Koenen (M4IF)) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:43 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Message-ID: I tired to send this message to the news list twice yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. Hopefully thisd does work. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 > To: 'M4IF news' > Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > M4IF News Readers, > > The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just released on the > news wire. > > I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes MPEG-4 AAC. I > hope - and expect - that this will enable deployment of many interoperable > services and devices with great audio quality. > > Kind Regards, > > Rob Koenen > President, M4IF > > > ( BW)(CA-VIA-LICENSING) MPEG-4 Audio Licensing Begins; MPEG-4 Audio Patent > Licenses Now Available from via Licensing Corporation > > > Business Editors/High-Tech Writers > > SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 6, 2003--Via Licensing > Corporation is pleased to announce the availability of MPEG-4 Audio patent > licenses. The MPEG-4 Audio patent license program provides streamlined > access to a set of essential MPEG-4 Audio patents from multiple parties, > under reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms. An MPEG-4 Audio patent > license is needed by companies that build and/or sell end-user products > incorporating MPEG-4 audio technologies. > "The commencement of MPEG-4 Audio licensing is the result of > unprecedented cooperation among a set of international consumer > electronics, telecommunications, and research organizations," said Ramzi > Haidamus, general manager of Via Licensing Corporation. "This is a very > significant milestone, and we are excited to be offering a license that > will enable the widespread deployment of an important open standard such > as MPEG-4 Audio." > For additional information about the licensing terms for MPEG-4 Audio, > or to request a sample patent license agreement, please visit the Via > Licensing website at www.vialicensing.com. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/discuss/attachments/20030607/aae8c068/attachment.html From rob.koenen m4if.org Sat Jun 7 11:56:58 2003 From: rob.koenen m4if.org (Rob Koenen (M4IF)) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:43 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] [M4IF News] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Message-ID: I tired to send this message to the news list twice yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. Hopefully thisd does work. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 > To: 'M4IF news' > Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > M4IF News Readers, > > The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just released on the > news wire. > > I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes MPEG-4 AAC. I > hope - and expect - that this will enable deployment of many interoperable > services and devices with great audio quality. > > Kind Regards, > > Rob Koenen > President, M4IF > > > ( BW)(CA-VIA-LICENSING) MPEG-4 Audio Licensing Begins; MPEG-4 Audio Patent > Licenses Now Available from via Licensing Corporation > > > Business Editors/High-Tech Writers > > SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 6, 2003--Via Licensing > Corporation is pleased to announce the availability of MPEG-4 Audio patent > licenses. The MPEG-4 Audio patent license program provides streamlined > access to a set of essential MPEG-4 Audio patents from multiple parties, > under reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms. An MPEG-4 Audio patent > license is needed by companies that build and/or sell end-user products > incorporating MPEG-4 audio technologies. > "The commencement of MPEG-4 Audio licensing is the result of > unprecedented cooperation among a set of international consumer > electronics, telecommunications, and research organizations," said Ramzi > Haidamus, general manager of Via Licensing Corporation. "This is a very > significant milestone, and we are excited to be offering a license that > will enable the widespread deployment of an important open standard such > as MPEG-4 Audio." > For additional information about the licensing terms for MPEG-4 Audio, > or to request a sample patent license agreement, please visit the Via > Licensing website at www.vialicensing.com. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/discuss/attachments/20030607/aae8c068/attachment-0001.html From holger.grahn bitmanagement.de Sat Jun 14 00:01:53 2003 From: holger.grahn bitmanagement.de (Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:43 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins References: Message-ID: <00c901c331ef$05477620$0502a8c0@Maximum> FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Hi Rob, just curious, are all these companies/institutions/projects/individuals offering public download MPEG-4 stuff paying MPEG-LA /System /Audio/Video fees ? Or are these downloads are somehow illegal offerings, or will these free downloads stop at the end of the year because of the initial grace periods and they all get sued ? What is for example with Divx Networks, MPEG4IP - mp4creator, IBM's Authoring tools ? and btw how to measure royalties for encoders, especially Systems encoders producing scene graph files which can run an endless animations ? Greetings Holger ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) To: M4IF Discussion List Cc: M4IF news Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2023 7:56 PM Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins I tired to send this message to the news list twice yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. Hopefully thisd does work. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 To: 'M4IF news' Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins M4IF News Readers, The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just released on the news wire. I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes MPEG-4 AAC. I hope - and expect - that this will enable deployment of many interoperable services and devices with great audio quality. Kind Regards, Rob Koenen President, M4IF -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/discuss/attachments/20030613/145bcd80/attachment.html From rob.koenen m4if.org Mon Jun 16 11:09:31 2003 From: rob.koenen m4if.org (Rob Koenen (M4IF)) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:44 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Holger, I wouldn't know; who pays licensing fees is none of my business. Some licenses have a threshold that may apply. Some information is on licensors' websites. You should ask the people that make software available if you really want to know. Kind Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement [mailto:holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2023 14:02 To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; M4IF Discussion List Cc: M4IF news Subject: Re: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Hi Rob, just curious, are all these companies/institutions/projects/individuals offering public download MPEG-4 stuff paying MPEG-LA /System /Audio/Video fees ? Or are these downloads are somehow illegal offerings, or will these free downloads stop at the end of the year because of the initial grace periods and they all get sued ? What is for example with Divx Networks, MPEG4IP - mp4creator, IBM's Authoring tools ? and btw how to measure royalties for encoders, especially Systems encoders producing scene graph files which can run an endless animations ? Greetings Holger ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) To: M4IF Discussion List Cc: M4IF news Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2023 7:56 PM Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins I tired to send this message to the news list twice yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. Hopefully thisd does work. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [ mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 To: 'M4IF news' Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins M4IF News Readers, The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just released on the news wire. I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes MPEG-4 AAC. I hope - and expect - that this will enable deployment of many interoperable services and devices with great audio quality. Kind Regards, Rob Koenen President, M4IF -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/discuss/attachments/20030616/74b93644/attachment.html From rob.koenen m4if.org Mon Jun 16 12:27:56 2003 From: rob.koenen m4if.org (Rob Koenen (M4IF)) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:44 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) In-Reply-To: <035a01c33433$c8b41f50$6601a8c0@Merlin> Message-ID: Those are good questions indeed. Note that the use fee is *much* more limited in the case of Systems than in the case of Visual, and in many cases it doesn't apply - such as your downloading example (I *believe* - MPEG LA to confirm or refute) Interestingly MPEG-4 Systems can be used to loop an MPEG-4 Visual clip - and the same question *is* pertinent. I have asked similar questions in the past, such as what with two videos that are meant to run in parallel in two windows, but can also run sequentially. Holger's question seems to contain a misunderstanding on the use fee, namely that it applies to encoding. As I understand the license, this is not the case. Rather, the use fee applies to the content being transmitted, served, packaged, etc. Again, MPEG LA to confirm or correct. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mikael Bourges-Sevenier [mailto:mikael@sevenier.com] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 11:19 To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Rob, even if we can't answer for the licensing fees, Holger asks an important question (that was asked since early last year) regarding Systems licensing. From mikael sevenier.com Mon Jun 16 12:18:45 2003 From: mikael sevenier.com (Mikael Bourges-Sevenier) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:44 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <035a01c33433$c8b41f50$6601a8c0@Merlin> Rob, even if we can't answer for the licensing fees, Holger asks an important question (that was asked since early last year) regarding Systems licensing. From LHorn mpegla.com Mon Jun 16 17:32:52 2003 From: LHorn mpegla.com (Larry Horn) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:44 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Message-ID: <8DDF6652F243A7419BC9BA168417EDDC4E5184@oxford.mpegla.com> Hello, Mikael, Holger and Rob, Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right to make, sell and use MPEG-4 Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in the royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity and $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity). The exception is for the MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data Encoder which refers specifically to the composition of MPEG-4 Systems Data which is paid for on a title by title basis and which is either (i) stored, replicated or recorded onto one or more physical media or (ii) Transmitted to an End User in a form which allows the End User, either by affirmative act of the Licensee or otherwise to view, hear or use such data (a) at least 20 times and (b) for a period of at least 365 Days from the date of Transmission. In that case, the royalties to make, sell and use (Sections 2.10 and 3.1.10 of the License) (a) fall upon the Transmitter of MPEG-4 Stored Data and/or encoder and/or replicator of MPEG-4 Stored Data onto packaged media and (b) are based upon the normal playing time of the Stored Data disc or Stored Data electronic transmission as it is intended to be viewed or used by an End User. Therefore, in the limited case where an MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data Encoder is used to create a loop of the kind you mention, the royalty under the MPEG-4 Systems License would be based upon the normal playing time of the Stored Data disc or Stored Data electronic transmission. I hope this is helpful. Best regards, Larry Horn -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 2:28 PM To: 'Mikael Bourges-Sevenier'; 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Those are good questions indeed. Note that the use fee is *much* more limited in the case of Systems than in the case of Visual, and in many cases it doesn't apply - such as your downloading example (I *believe* - MPEG LA to confirm or refute) Interestingly MPEG-4 Systems can be used to loop an MPEG-4 Visual clip - and the same question *is* pertinent. I have asked similar questions in the past, such as what with two videos that are meant to run in parallel in two windows, but can also run sequentially. Holger's question seems to contain a misunderstanding on the use fee, namely that it applies to encoding. As I understand the license, this is not the case. Rather, the use fee applies to the content being transmitted, served, packaged, etc. Again, MPEG LA to confirm or correct. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mikael Bourges-Sevenier [mailto:mikael@sevenier.com] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 11:19 To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins Rob, even if we can't answer for the licensing fees, Holger asks an important question (that was asked since early last year) regarding Systems licensing. From mikael sevenier.com Mon Jun 16 16:56:24 2003 From: mikael sevenier.com (Mikael Bourges-Sevenier) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) In-Reply-To: <8DDF6652F243A7419BC9BA168417EDDC4E5184@oxford.mpegla.com> Message-ID: <002901c3345a$983fb9c0$6601a8c0@Merlin> Dear Larry, It is very helpful but I think the nature of synthetic contents makes the notion of "normal playing time" very vague. This notion of "normal playing time" works well for contents that are streamed to the terminal because, in this case, it is like a video. Let's take the example of a video with a spinning logo of a company in a corner. I would understand the "normal playing time" as the time to play the video. Would this also count for the same amount of time for the spinning logo? Or maybe it would be the time to make a loop? As the video can also play repeatedly, a synthetic animation can too, and therefore the time to make a loop could be the "normal playing time" of the synthetic content. While a video has only one timeline, in a synthetic content, you have multiple timeline maybe running in parallel, sequential, user or network activated. In this case, what is the "normal playing time"? Thanks for your clarifications, Kind regards, Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Horn [mailto:LHorn@mpegla.com] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 3:33 PM > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; Mikael Bourges-Sevenier; Holger > Grahn - Bitmanagement; M4IF Discussion List > Cc: Dean Skandalis > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio > Licensing begins) > > > Hello, Mikael, Holger and Rob, > > Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right > to make, sell and use MPEG-4 Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 > Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in > the royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per > decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity and > $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal > entity). The exception is for the MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data > Encoder which refers specifically to the composition of > MPEG-4 Systems Data which is paid for on a title by title > basis and which is either (i) stored, replicated or recorded > onto one or more physical media or (ii) Transmitted to an > End User in a form which allows the End User, either by > affirmative act of the Licensee or otherwise to view, hear or > use such data (a) at least 20 times and (b) for a period of > at least 365 Days from the date of Transmission. In that > case, the royalties to make, sell and use (Sections 2.10 and > 3.1.10 of the License) (a) fall upon the Transmitter of > MPEG-4 Stored Data and/or encoder and/or replicator of MPEG-4 > Stored Data onto packaged media and (b) are based upon the > normal playing time of the Stored Data disc or Stored Data > electronic transmission as it is intended to be viewed or > used by an End User. Therefore, in the limited case where an > MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data Encoder is used to create a loop > of the kind you mention, the royalty under the MPEG-4 Systems > License would be based upon the normal playing time of the > Stored Data disc or Stored Data electronic transmission. > > I hope this is helpful. > > Best regards, > Larry Horn > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 2:28 PM > To: 'Mikael Bourges-Sevenier'; 'Holger Grahn - > Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' > Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio > Licensing begins) > > > Those are good questions indeed. Note that the use fee is > *much* more limited in the case of Systems than in the case > of Visual, and in many cases it doesn't apply - such as your > downloading example (I *believe* - MPEG LA to confirm or refute) > > Interestingly MPEG-4 Systems can be used to loop an MPEG-4 > Visual clip - and the same question *is* pertinent. > > I have asked similar questions in the past, such as what with > two videos that are meant to run in parallel in two windows, > but can also run sequentially. > > Holger's question seems to contain a misunderstanding on the > use fee, namely that it applies to encoding. As I understand > the license, this is not the case. Rather, the use fee > applies to the content being transmitted, served, packaged, > etc. Again, MPEG LA to confirm or correct. > > Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikael Bourges-Sevenier [mailto:mikael@sevenier.com] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 11:19 > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; > 'M4IF Discussion List' > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > Rob, > > even if we can't answer for the licensing fees, Holger asks > an important question (that was asked since early last year) > regarding Systems licensing. > > From my understanding, Systems licensing follows Video > licensing but the usage fee doesn't make any sense. For > example, you can produce a few bytes long scene that can run > indefinitely (animation loop). Downloading this would take a > fraction of a second so what do pay for under the "usage > fee"? What does "usage" means in this case? > > Maybe an MPEG LA reprentative can explain us? > > Kind regards, > > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: discuss-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:discuss-admin@lists.m4if.org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen (M4IF) > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 10:10 AM > To: 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; M4IF Discussion List > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > Holger, > > I wouldn't know; who pays licensing fees is none of my business. > > Some licenses have a threshold that may apply. Some > information is on licensors' websites. > > You should ask the people that make software available if you > really want to know. > > Kind Regards, > Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement > [mailto:holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de] > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2023 14:02 > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; M4IF Discussion List > Cc: M4IF news > Subject: Re: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > > Hi Rob, > > just curious, > are all these companies/institutions/projects/individuals > offering public download MPEG-4 stuff paying MPEG-LA /System > /Audio/Video fees ? > > Or are these downloads are somehow illegal offerings, or will > these free downloads stop at the end of the year because of > the initial grace periods and they all get sued ? What is for > example with Divx Networks, MPEG4IP - mp4creator, IBM's > Authoring tools ? and btw how to measure royalties for > encoders, especially Systems encoders producing scene graph > files which can run an endless animations ? > > Greetings > > Holger > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) > To: M4IF Discussion List > Cc: M4IF news > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2023 7:56 PM > Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > I tired to send this message to the news list twice > yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. > Hopefully thisd does work. > Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 > To: 'M4IF news' > Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > M4IF News Readers, > The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just > released on the news wire. > I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes > MPEG-4 AAC. I hope - and expect - that this will enable > deployment of many interoperable services and devices with > great audio quality. > Kind Regards, > Rob Koenen > President, M4IF > > From holger.grahn bitmanagement.de Tue Jun 17 02:46:08 2003 From: holger.grahn bitmanagement.de (Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) References: <8DDF6652F243A7419BC9BA168417EDDC4E5184@oxford.mpegla.com> Message-ID: <01c201c33461$7b63b570$0502a8c0@Maximum> Thanks Larry, > Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right to make, sell and use MPEG-4 >Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in the >royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per >legal entity and $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity). But could you clarify an existing market example: Taking an actual existing OpenSource project like mpeg4ip: They are making 'MPEG-4 Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data encoders' freely available on the Internet. The are not selling it, it is not clear who is the 'product manufacturers', they are not tracking how many 'encoder subjects' are compiled or used from the source code. How would MPEG-LA charge them or took action? If the term 'product manufacturers' refers only to manufacturers offering physical manifestations of MPEG-4 capable devices like an MPEG-4 AAC Portable Music Player, an MPEG-4 Personal Video Player / DVD player or an Set-Top box this would be an different and more practical approach. I assume that manufacturers of such devices are bigger entities and have no problems paying the $100,000 annual cap to get rid of the book keeping issues. My question is related to reducing the risk for Open Source projects or early adopter software and content companies investing into MPEG-4 developments and content. To my memory MP3 took off, when the intial very strict licence conditions where relaxed and shareware/software based MP3 players where no longer subject of royalties. Best Regards Holger From ben interframemedia.com Mon Jun 16 18:56:07 2003 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) In-Reply-To: <01c201c33461$7b63b570$0502a8c0@Maximum> Message-ID: Holger, As far as I understand this... A good analogy for MPEG4IP is the LAME MP3 encoder. It isn't distributed as compiled binaries, but as source code. So it's not really a "product," but a research project, akin to the MPEG reference software. Vendors can make products using MPEG4IP, and then have to pay a license. This seems like a good thing for everyone. Lots of engineers get exposure to MPEG-4 technologies, we have a more production ready reference implementation for many things. And to the extent users are so price sensitive they would use MPEG4IP instead of buying a real encoding product... Well, that's not going to be a large audience. Making an actual, final .mp4 file with MPEG4IP is on par in complexity for an end user as, say, recompiling and installing a new Linux kernel. MPEG4IP doesn't meaningfully compete with the commercial products that pay license fees. Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding My Book: Cleaner e-book: Compression Classes at Stanford June 30-July 4 and Aug 11-15 Compression Class in New York City, July 13 on 6/16/03 16:46, Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement at holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de wrote: > But could you clarify an existing market example: > > Taking an actual existing OpenSource project like mpeg4ip: > They are making 'MPEG-4 Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data > encoders' > freely available on the Internet. > The are not selling it, it is not clear who is the 'product manufacturers', > they are not tracking how many > 'encoder subjects' are compiled or used from the source code. > > How would MPEG-LA charge them or took action? > > If the term 'product manufacturers' refers only to manufacturers offering > physical manifestations > of MPEG-4 capable devices like an MPEG-4 AAC Portable Music Player, an > MPEG-4 Personal > Video Player / DVD player or an Set-Top box this would be an different and > more practical approach. > > I assume that manufacturers of such devices are bigger entities and have no > problems paying the $100,000 annual cap to get rid of the book keeping > issues. > > My question is related to reducing the risk for Open Source projects or > early adopter software and content companies investing into MPEG-4 > developments and content. > > To my memory MP3 took off, when the intial very strict licence conditions > where relaxed and shareware/software based MP3 players where no longer > subject of royalties. From ben interframemedia.com Mon Jun 16 19:43:49 2003 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] 3GPP system license fees Message-ID: Folks, Are there any additional license fees to use 3GPP over the standard Systems license fees that, say, an ISMA product would have to pay? Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding My Book: Cleaner e-book: Compression Classes at Stanford June 30-July 4 and Aug 11-15 Compression Class in New York City, July 13 From rob.koenen m4if.org Tue Jun 17 01:26:52 2003 From: rob.koenen m4if.org (Rob Koenen (M4IF)) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) In-Reply-To: <002901c3345a$983fb9c0$6601a8c0@Merlin> Message-ID: While the notion of " normal playing time of the Stored Data disc or Stored Data electronic transmission as it is intended to be viewed or used by an End User " may make sense for "classical" (linear) video, for much of what can be created with more advanced MPEG-4 tools that concept is probably meaningless. Best, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikael Bourges-Sevenier [mailto:mikael@sevenier.com] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 15:56 > To: 'Larry Horn'; rob.koenen@m4if.org; 'Holger Grahn - > Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' > Cc: 'Dean Skandalis' > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio > Licensing begins) > > > Dear Larry, > > It is very helpful but I think the nature of synthetic > contents makes the > notion of "normal playing time" very vague. This notion of > "normal playing > time" works well for contents that are streamed to the > terminal because, in > this case, it is like a video. > > Let's take the example of a video with a spinning logo of a > company in a > corner. I would understand the "normal playing time" as the > time to play the > video. Would this also count for the same amount of time for > the spinning > logo? Or maybe it would be the time to make a loop? > > As the video can also play repeatedly, a synthetic animation > can too, and > therefore the time to make a loop could be the "normal > playing time" of the > synthetic content. > > While a video has only one timeline, in a synthetic content, you have > multiple timeline maybe running in parallel, sequential, user > or network > activated. In this case, what is the "normal playing time"? > > Thanks for your clarifications, > > Kind regards, > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Larry Horn [mailto:LHorn@mpegla.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 3:33 PM > > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; Mikael Bourges-Sevenier; Holger > > Grahn - Bitmanagement; M4IF Discussion List > > Cc: Dean Skandalis > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio > > Licensing begins) > > > > > > Hello, Mikael, Holger and Rob, > > > > Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right > > to make, sell and use MPEG-4 Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 > > Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in > > the royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per > > decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity and > > $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal > > entity). The exception is for the MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data > > Encoder which refers specifically to the composition of > > MPEG-4 Systems Data which is paid for on a title by title > > basis and which is either (i) stored, replicated or recorded > > onto one or more physical media or (ii) Transmitted to an > > End User in a form which allows the End User, either by > > affirmative act of the Licensee or otherwise to view, hear or > > use such data (a) at least 20 times and (b) for a period of > > at least 365 Days from the date of Transmission. In that > > case, the royalties to make, sell and use (Sections 2.10 and > > 3.1.10 of the License) (a) fall upon the Transmitter of > > MPEG-4 Stored Data and/or encoder and/or replicator of MPEG-4 > > Stored Data onto packaged media and (b) are based upon the > > normal playing time of the Stored Data disc or Stored Data > > electronic transmission as it is intended to be viewed or > > used by an End User. Therefore, in the limited case where an > > MPEG-4 Systems Stored Data Encoder is used to create a loop > > of the kind you mention, the royalty under the MPEG-4 Systems > > License would be based upon the normal playing time of the > > Stored Data disc or Stored Data electronic transmission. > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > Best regards, > > Larry Horn > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 2:28 PM > > To: 'Mikael Bourges-Sevenier'; 'Holger Grahn - > > Bitmanagement'; 'M4IF Discussion List' > > Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio > > Licensing begins) > > > > > > Those are good questions indeed. Note that the use fee is > > *much* more limited in the case of Systems than in the case > > of Visual, and in many cases it doesn't apply - such as your > > downloading example (I *believe* - MPEG LA to confirm or refute) > > > > Interestingly MPEG-4 Systems can be used to loop an MPEG-4 > > Visual clip - and the same question *is* pertinent. > > > > I have asked similar questions in the past, such as what with > > two videos that are meant to run in parallel in two windows, > > but can also run sequentially. > > > > Holger's question seems to contain a misunderstanding on the > > use fee, namely that it applies to encoding. As I understand > > the license, this is not the case. Rather, the use fee > > applies to the content being transmitted, served, packaged, > > etc. Again, MPEG LA to confirm or correct. > > > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mikael Bourges-Sevenier [mailto:mikael@sevenier.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 11:19 > > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; > > 'M4IF Discussion List' > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > > > > Rob, > > > > even if we can't answer for the licensing fees, Holger asks > > an important question (that was asked since early last year) > > regarding Systems licensing. > > > > From my understanding, Systems licensing follows Video > > licensing but the usage fee doesn't make any sense. For > > example, you can produce a few bytes long scene that can run > > indefinitely (animation loop). Downloading this would take a > > fraction of a second so what do pay for under the "usage > > fee"? What does "usage" means in this case? > > > > Maybe an MPEG LA reprentative can explain us? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > > From: discuss-admin@lists.m4if.org > > [mailto:discuss-admin@lists.m4if.org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen (M4IF) > > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 10:10 AM > > To: 'Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement'; M4IF Discussion List > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > > > > Holger, > > > > I wouldn't know; who pays licensing fees is none of my business. > > > > Some licenses have a threshold that may apply. Some > > information is on licensors' websites. > > > > You should ask the people that make software available if you > > really want to know. > > > > Kind Regards, > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement > > [mailto:holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de] > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2023 14:02 > > To: rob.koenen@m4if.org; M4IF Discussion List > > Cc: M4IF news > > Subject: Re: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > just curious, > > are all these companies/institutions/projects/individuals > > offering public download MPEG-4 stuff paying MPEG-LA /System > > /Audio/Video fees ? > > > > Or are these downloads are somehow illegal offerings, or will > > these free downloads stop at the end of the year because of > > the initial grace periods and they all get sued ? What is for > > example with Divx Networks, MPEG4IP - mp4creator, IBM's > > Authoring tools ? and btw how to measure royalties for > > encoders, especially Systems encoders producing scene graph > > files which can run an endless animations ? > > > > Greetings > > > > Holger > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) > > To: M4IF Discussion List > > Cc: M4IF news > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2023 7:56 PM > > Subject: [M4IF Discuss] FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > > > > > I tired to send this message to the news list twice > > yesterday, but there are some problems with that list. > > Hopefully thisd does work. > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Koenen (M4IF) [mailto:rob.koenen@m4if.org] > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2023 11:16 > > To: 'M4IF news' > > Subject: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins > > M4IF News Readers, > > The news that MPEG-4 Audio licensing has begun was just > > released on the news wire. > > I think this is great news for MPEG-4 Audio, which includes > > MPEG-4 AAC. I hope - and expect - that this will enable > > deployment of many interoperable services and devices with > > great audio quality. > > Kind Regards, > > Rob Koenen > > President, M4IF > > > > > > > From Gerardo.Rosiles motorola.com Tue Jun 17 12:38:51 2003 From: Gerardo.Rosiles motorola.com (Rosiles Gerardo-ra9355) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begin s) Message-ID: <6728517EECE7D511981B00D0B78290310355EF48@az33exm27.corp.mot.com> Dear all, On the topic below, from the licensing of MPEG-2 technology the royalty payment falls into the end product manufacturers. It is not clear to me in this case what is meant by "product manufacturer"? Does this refer to the end product (e.g. a DVD player supporting MPEG-4), or does it mean the MPEG-4 decoder *chip manufacturer*? Regards, Gerardo -----Original Message----- From: Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement [mailto:holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 6:46 PM To: M4IF Discussion List Subject: Re: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Thanks Larry, > Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right to make, > sell and use MPEG-4 >Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in the >royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per >legal entity and $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity). If the term 'product manufacturers' refers only to manufacturers offering physical manifestations of MPEG-4 capable devices like an MPEG-4 AAC Portable Music Player, an MPEG-4 Personal Video Player / DVD player or an Set-Top box this would be an different and more practical approach. I assume that manufacturers of such devices are bigger entities and have no problems paying the $100,000 annual cap to get rid of the book keeping issues. From LHorn mpegla.com Tue Jun 17 15:14:51 2003 From: LHorn mpegla.com (Larry Horn) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Message-ID: <8DDF6652F243A7419BC9BA168417EDDC4E5191@oxford.mpegla.com> Hello, Gerardo. In your example, the license to manufacture does refer to the end product (e.g., a DVD player supporting MPEG-4). In the case of Internet decoders and encoders, however, it refers to the fully functioning product. The Licenese does not provide coverage for intermediate products such as chips. Regards, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Rosiles Gerardo-ra9355 [mailto:Gerardo.Rosiles@motorola.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2023 2:39 PM To: M4IF Discussion List Subject: RE: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Dear all, On the topic below, from the licensing of MPEG-2 technology the royalty payment falls into the end product manufacturers. It is not clear to me in this case what is meant by "product manufacturer"? Does this refer to the end product (e.g. a DVD player supporting MPEG-4), or does it mean the MPEG-4 decoder *chip manufacturer*? Regards, Gerardo -----Original Message----- From: Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement [mailto:holger.grahn@bitmanagement.de] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2023 6:46 PM To: M4IF Discussion List Subject: Re: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) Thanks Larry, > Under the MPEG-4 Systems License the royalties for the right to make, > sell and use MPEG-4 >Systems data decoders and MPEG-4 Systems data encoders are included (with one exception) in the >royalties paid by the product manufacturers ($0.15 per decoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per >legal entity and $0.25 per encoder subject to a $100,000 annual cap per legal entity). If the term 'product manufacturers' refers only to manufacturers offering physical manifestations of MPEG-4 capable devices like an MPEG-4 AAC Portable Music Player, an MPEG-4 Personal Video Player / DVD player or an Set-Top box this would be an different and more practical approach. I assume that manufacturers of such devices are bigger entities and have no problems paying the $100,000 annual cap to get rid of the book keeping issues. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss From rbleidt hdtv.com Tue Jun 17 15:23:53 2003 From: rbleidt hdtv.com (Robert Bleidt) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] 3GPP system license fees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030617132746.033ab8e8@localhost> A very good question Ben! If we talk about just the media stream and not the mobile network, the encoder and decoder manufacturers have to pay for the right to use patents essential to each codec. So if you were to consider an encoder that sends a Simple Profile video stream and an AAC audio stream, the royalty costs would be the same. If your encoder or decoder includes a CELP or GSM-AMR encoder, its manufacturer would have to pay royalties on those as well. Most (in non-CDMA countries) handsets, of course, will already include a royalty for GSM-AMR to carry the speech of a normal call. As far as I know, the MPEG-4 Visual and System licenses administered by MPEG-LA are the only ones to impose a royalty on length of use. While the costs of MPEG-4 royalties are published (see http://www.streamcrest.com/MPEG-4%20License%20Proposals.pdf [needs some minor updates], http://www.mpegla.com/mpeg4v/m4vweb.ppt, http://www.vialicensing.com/) the costs of a GSM-AMR license are very private. I have asked people who have to know what they are, and they either say they don't know or can't tell me. If one looks beyond the video and audio level, the royalty situation quickly gets very interesting. I have read casual quotes pegging the royalty costs as being 10-20% of the manufacturing cost of a handset. I think about 1/3 of Qualcomm's revenues come from IPR as opposed to chips or products. If anyone knows more or different - I would welcome the feedback. At 06:43 PM 6/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Folks, > > Are there any additional license fees to use 3GPP over the standard >Systems license fees that, say, an ISMA product would have to pay? > >Ben Waggoner >Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding > >My Book: >Cleaner e-book: > >Compression Classes at Stanford June 30-July 4 and Aug 11-15 > > >Compression Class in New York City, July 13 > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Discuss mailing list >Discuss@lists.m4if.org >http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Robert Bleidt - Streamcrest Associates - www.streamcrest.com From holger.grahn bitmanagement.de Wed Jun 18 02:18:30 2003 From: holger.grahn bitmanagement.de (Holger Grahn - Bitmanagement) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:51:45 2003 Subject: [M4IF Discuss] Use Fees (Was FW: MPEG-4 Audio Licensing begins) References: <8DDF6652F243A7419BC9BA168417EDDC61427C@oxford.mpegla.com> Message-ID: <012901c33526$c4552690$0502a8c0@Maximum> Hi I would like to give an realistic example for systems content where its difficult to measure the normal playing time : The presentation is a slide show like an power point presentation or a photo album: It has also 2 buttons for jumping to the next or previous slide, and a user adjustable slider to have an automated "go to next slide" timer. The playing time is really dependent on how fast the user presses the "goto next slide" button or how the user adjust the automatic playback speed. What is the playing time in this case : 0 because an image or slide has no inherent duration, or as long as a the average user will look at the presentation, or does the content hoster need to measure how long the user interacts with the content ? Sounds hard to me to solve, until one correlates the fees with the number of bits in the stored or transmitted MPEG-4 content. Regarding Open Source projects : Ben wrote: >Making actual, final .mp4 file with MPEG4IP is on par in complexity for an end user >as, say, recompiling and installing a new Linux kernel. MPEG4IP doesn't >meaningfully compete with the commercial products that pay license fees. Pre-Built binaries of mpeg4ip and howtos for end-users are offered in the internet. What if some instutions, university uses it for some internal intranet video transmission (Illegal use ?) And I think it need to be considered that millions (?) of computer users are already using different OpenSource MPEG-4 video codecs to squeeze down DVD's or recorded TV-Shows onto normal CD's. I think trying to collect the fees in such use cases is probably impossible, and taken action against developers, hosters of such tools would fall back as bad marketing for MPEG-4. Best Regards Holger