From sathesandeep yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 03:22:06 2001 From: sathesandeep yahoo.com (Sandeep Sathe) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:55 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Frame Skip in MoMuSys decoder. Message-ID: <20011002092206.64856.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, In the reference MoMuSyS MPEG-4 decoder version 1, in case of frame skips, why does the decoder decode the frame and then check if frame is to be skipped? Say in decoding sequence, VOPs v2 to v5 are skipped. So after decoding v1, reference decoder decodes v6 and uses v6 (rather than using v1) for displaying v2 to v5 VOPs. Isn't it against the rate model? As VOP v6 'possibly' won't be available fully in the vbv buffer at time t2; where t2 is the time to start decoding of next VOP after v1. Regards, Sandeep. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From sudhakar cradle.com Wed Oct 3 13:31:20 2001 From: sudhakar cradle.com (Sudhakar Rao Kimidi) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:55 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] max size in simple profile Message-ID: <3BBAB7C0.6FE1B57@cradle.com> Hi all, I am still not clear about max. size in simple profile. Is it 396 or 396*4 macroblocks per frame. Thanks, Sudhakar. From Jani.Huoponen hantro.com Wed Oct 3 11:44:11 2001 From: Jani.Huoponen hantro.com (Jani Huoponen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:55 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] max size in simple profile Message-ID: Hi, > Hi all, > > I am still not clear about max. size in simple profile. > Is it 396 or 396*4 macroblocks per frame. It is 396 macroblocks for Simple Profile, Levels 2 and 3. For Level 1 it is 99 macroblocks. BR, Jani ------------------------------------------------------------ Jani Huoponen Engineering Manager, System Design Hantro Products Oy Nahkatehtaankatu 2, 90100 Oulu, Finland +358-40-5272676 ------------------------------------------------------------ From lpearlst ati.com Thu Oct 4 12:04:10 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help with MPEG-4 Visual/Natural reference software Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FA1@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Hi, I've been playing with the MPEG-4 Visual Reference Software, FDIS version 1.0, Natural, decoder software from both Microsoft and MoMuSys. I've built and run both under Visual C++ under WinNT. I have decoded the reference bitstream vcon-ge1.cmp, which contains the ping-pong sequence. The VideoObjectLayer header specifies a rectangular format of 720 x 576. I trace both decoders, and I see the 720 x 576 dimension at the dump routine. But when I examine the output files (planar 4:2:0 YUV, with multiple frames concatenated in one file) I find that both Microsoft and MoMuSys seem to produce pictures formatted at 720 x 480. Any ideas why this might be happening? Also, I have tried to subscribe to the MoMuSys reflector, but the EMAIL address seems bad. Is there still an active MoMuSys reflector? Thanks, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011004/54a8ba95/attachment.html From Jayank.Bhalod luxxon.com Thu Oct 4 20:19:50 2001 From: Jayank.Bhalod luxxon.com (Jayank Bhalod) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4 video elementary stream Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I am having this simple question regarding mpeg-4 decoder. How can i have one mpeg-4 elementary stream, let say first part with some bitrate(and/or resolution) and rest with some other bitrate(and/or resolution), with the assumption of having the same profile and level in the entire stream. One can repeat VideoObjectlayer() to encompass this information inside the bitstream but is it legal from decoder perspective? Or is there any better way to do this? One can start the session again but isnt it ugly? -jayank From ramki emuzed.com Fri Oct 5 20:46:56 2001 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4 video elementary stream References: Message-ID: <068d01c14da8$6681ed80$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Hi, Are you talking about rectangular objects? If so, then resolution can be changed in between without putting videoobjectlayer (VO() also needs to be put). The bit-rate can be changed in between without any problem as long as VBV compliance is ensured. -ramkishor Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jayank Bhalod" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2023 7:49 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4 video elementary stream > > > Hello Everyone, > > I am having this simple question regarding mpeg-4 decoder. > > How can i have one mpeg-4 elementary stream, let say first part with some > bitrate(and/or resolution) and rest with some other bitrate(and/or > resolution), with the assumption of having the same profile and level in the > entire stream. > One can repeat VideoObjectlayer() to encompass this information inside the > bitstream but is it legal from decoder perspective? Or is there any better > way to do this? > One can start the session again but isnt it ugly? > > -jayank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > From gchandra tataelxsi.co.in Mon Oct 8 17:04:25 2001 From: gchandra tataelxsi.co.in (G Chandra Sekhar Reddy) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: [M4IF Infolist] Doubt! References: Message-ID: <003201c14fe4$d77e4900$cc14010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Hi, I don't think the restrictions posed by you on the placings of the objects are valid. There can even be overlaps of objects! Chandra Sekhar Reddy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: ramanathan To: Jani.Huoponen@hantro.com ; infolist@lists.m4if.org Cc: rks@cradle.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2023 3:08 PM Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Doubt! I have a doubt regarding the composition of objects in case of 396 macroblocks for 4 objects.I beg your time to read the doument in which I have raised my doubt. Thank you. Ramanathan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011008/01356024/attachment.html From Jani.Huoponen hantro.com Mon Oct 8 15:42:47 2001 From: Jani.Huoponen hantro.com (Jani Huoponen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: [M4IF Infolist] Doubt! Message-ID: Hi, Chandra is right. Another point is that the Visual standard does not 'care' how the objects are placed in the display, the standard only defines the requirements or constraints for compatible decoders. For example, the maximum number of macro blocks per second the decoder has to be able to decode for certain profile and level. It is the 14496-1 standard that concentrates on the issues like displaying of objects. br, Jani -----Original Message----- From: G Chandra Sekhar Reddy [mailto:gchandra@tataelxsi.co.in] Sent: 8. lokakuuta 2001 13:34 To: ramanathan; M4IF TechNotes Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: [M4IF Infolist] Doubt! Hi, I don't think the restrictions posed by you on the placings of the objects are valid. There can even be overlaps of objects! Chandra Sekhar Reddy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: ramanathan To: Jani.Huoponen@hantro.com ; infolist@lists.m4if.org Cc: rks@cradle.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2023 3:08 PM Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Doubt! I have a doubt regarding the composition of objects in case of 396 macroblocks for 4 objects.I beg your time to read the doument in which I have raised my doubt. Thank you. Ramanathan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011008/8f044f8b/attachment.html From lpearlst ati.com Mon Oct 8 18:50:19 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FC1@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, I am confused about MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation. I'm not sure that the standard agrees with the Microsoft implementation. I did not look at the MoMuSys implementation. In discussing my concern, I will refer to the figure below: <<...OLE_Obj...>> The features are intended to convey the following information: filled in black circles - represent actual pixel values in reference picture open black (or gray) circles - represent prediction values that would arise from vertical or horizontal motion offset by exactly 1/2 pel (i.e. one dimension has offset = 1/2, other dimension has offset = 0). open black square - represents prediction value that would arise from both vertical and horizontal motion offset of 1/2 X - represents prediction values where either or both of the vertical and horizontal offsets are not integer, or 1/2. black X - represent prediction values where I believe that the Microsoft reference code matches the spec red bold X - represents prediction values where the Microsoft reference code does not match my understanding of the spec. My interpretation of the spec is that the open circle positions and the open square position should be computed by applying the 8-tap horizontal filter (where appropriate), rounding and clipping, the applying the 8-tap vertical filter (where appropriate) followed by rounding and clipping. Then, each of the 'X' positions should be computed via bilinear interpolation based on circle or square positions, followed by rounding. The Microsoft implementation only implements two passes. First a horizontal pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for horizontal offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Then a vertical pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for vertical offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Although the linear operations of 8-tap filtering and bilinear filtering, both vertically and horizontally, are commutative, the non-linear steps of rounding and clipping, required by the specification, may not permit commutation of operations. In particular, it seems that the specification requires that the offsets marked by the red X's be computed based on bilinear operation involving the open-square value. This is not being done in the Microsoft implementation. Comments, help? Thanks, Larry Pearlstein ATI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011008/e12ffa0f/attachment.html From lpearlst ati.com Mon Oct 8 19:09:39 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FC2@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> /* It seems that the drawing in my previous EMAIL did not make it */ /* This is a resend with the drawing replaced by ASCII art */ Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, I am confused about MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation. I'm not sure that the standard agrees with the "Microsoft" reference software implementation. I did not look at the MoMuSys implementation. I'm using the software in WG11 document n4278. In discussing my concern, I will refer to the figure below: 0 1/4 1/2 3/4 0 p x o x p 1/4 x X x X 1/2 o X c X o 3/4 x X x X p x o x p The features are intended to convey the following information: p - represent actual pixel values in reference picture o - represent prediction values that would arise from vertical or horizontal motion offset by exactly 1/2 pel (i.e. one dimension has offset = 1/2, other dimension has offset = 0). c - represents prediction value that would arise from both vertical and horizontal motion offset of 1/2 x or X - represents prediction values where either or both of the vertical and horizontal offsets are not integer, or 1/2. x - represent prediction values where the Microsoft reference code matches my understanding of the spec X - represents prediction values where the Microsoft reference code does not match my understanding of the spec. My interpretation of the spec is that the open circle positions and the open square position should be computed by applying the 8-tap horizontal filter (where appropriate), rounding and clipping, the applying the 8-tap vertical filter (where appropriate) followed by rounding and clipping. Then, each of the 'x' or 'X' positions should be computed via bilinear interpolation based on circle or square positions, followed by rounding. The "Microsoft" implementation only implements two passes. First a horizontal pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for horizontal offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Then a vertical pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for vertical offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Although the linear operations of 8-tap filtering and bilinear filtering, both vertically and horizontally, are commutative, the non-linear steps of rounding and clipping, required by the specification, may not permit commutation of operations. In particular, it seems that the specification requires that the offsets marked by the red X's be computed based on bilinear operation involving the open-square value. This is not being done in the Microsoft implementation. Comments, help? Thanks, Larry Pearlstein ATI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011008/8ae82ad8/attachment.html From yangwj lucent.com Tue Oct 9 10:23:00 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:56 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] A question on MPEG4 BifsEnc input file format Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F0191045E@CI0027EXCH001U> hi,all: in Im1Core reference software, the Bifs encoder input file is as circle.txt, I wonder whether it is VRML compliant? Thanks Mac From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 9 08:00:26 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences wit h quality/bitrates Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B0481BDD4@exchange.epr.com> Please move this discussion to the technotes list. The infolist is only for annuncements and news about MPEG-4. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Manish Singhal [mailto:manish.singhal@ittiam.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2023 3:15 PM > To: Darrius "Junto" Thompson; Michael Chertok; > infolist@lists.m4if.org; > Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Hello there > > I have a basic question: > Is DIVX > > = MPEG-4 Simple Profile + Proprietary Tools ? > > OR > > = MPEG-4 Simple Profile + MPEG-2 (DVD) + Proprietary Tools ? > > Rgds > Manish Singhal > Manager > Video & Imaging > Ittiam Systems > India. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darrius "Junto" Thompson > Sent: Fri 10/5/2024 8:44 PM > To: Michael Chertok; infolist@lists.m4if.org; > Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Cc: > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and > -4 differences with quality/bitrates > > All, > > >"DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile > (actually it is missing > a bit in the syntax)." > > Our last release produces a stream that is compliant with > MPEG-4 and should > be correctly parsed by a compliant syntax parser. However we > also discovered > that the encoder writes incorrect values for 'obmc_disable' > field and some of > the fields that are related to timing ( > time_increment_resolution, time_base, > time_increment ). An MPEG-4 compliant decoder that takes > those fields into > account may decode the stream incorrectly. Our next release > will fix these > issues. I hope to have a new release with this fixed as well > as some added > new features within the next 2 weeks if not sooner. > > Please let me know if you have any more questions, ideas or > are interested in > some testing. > > Darrius Thompson (aka Junto) > Director DivX > http://www.divx.com > http://www.projectmayo.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Michael Chertok > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2023 3:13 AM > To: infolist@lists.m4if.org; Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; > Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Cc: Darrius "Junto" Thompson > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Hello, Klaus. > You mentioned in your message that: > "DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually > it is missing > a > bit in the syntax)." > Can you tell us, what is this bit, please ? > It's not too late to fix it. > Thank you in advance. > > Regards, > --------------------------------- > Michael Chertok > Adyoron Intelligent Systems Ltd. > E-mail : michael@adyoron.com > URL : www.adyoron.com > Tel : +972 (3) 6491110 (x236) > Fax : +972 (3) 6488849 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Klaus Diepold > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 17:24 > To: Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; infolist@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Chritophe, > > Dicas GmbH in Berlin is offering a Core Profile encoder SDK, > which offers non-rectangular video objects (Binary Shape Coding). > > It is in fact pretty fast (I think even real-time), > as long as you have the shapes of the non-rectangular video > objects upfront. > > I doubt that MPEG-4 simple visual profile is offering better > compression for > TV quality video than MPEG-2 Main Profile Main Level. This is > also based on > the > fact that simple visual profile is only specified up to CIF > resolution and > to a > maximum bit rate of 384 kbit/sec, while not supporting (of course) > interlaced video. > > DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually > it is missing a > bit in the syntax). > DivX does not obey to the level definitions in the standard, > so you can > actually code video > with high bit rate and higher resolution. > > Cheers > Klaus Diepold > DynaPel Labs > > +-----Original Message----- > +From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > +[mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of > +Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be > +Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 4:42 PM > +To: infolist@lists.m4if.org > +Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 > differences with > +quality/bitrates > + > + > +Hi All, > + > +Maybe this is a FAQ, but is there a list or reference > +on the differences between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 that > +really tries to explain why MPEG-4 actually provides > +better compression for TV-like quality ? > + > +I looked at the MPEG.org site, but the page from > +Roberto Grandi seems to have disappeared and can't > +be found even by Google, and the "Structure of MPEG-4 > +Video Coding" at HHI Berlin lacks many pictures (I get > +some text in German) and doesn't explain which of all > +those techniques are used in current codecs such as DivX, > +or in the simple visual profile. > + > +Is there any real-time codec up there that can handle > +non-rectangular VOPs ? > + > +Thanks for your help. > + > +Christophe. > +_______________________________________________ > +M4IF General Information list > +Infolist@lists.m4if.org > +http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist > + > + > > > > > _______________________________________________ > M4IF General Information list > Infolist@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist > > > From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 9 08:00:26 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences wit h quality/bitrates Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B0481BDD4@exchange.epr.com> Please move this discussion to the technotes list. The infolist is only for annuncements and news about MPEG-4. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Manish Singhal [mailto:manish.singhal@ittiam.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2023 3:15 PM > To: Darrius "Junto" Thompson; Michael Chertok; > infolist@lists.m4if.org; > Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Hello there > > I have a basic question: > Is DIVX > > = MPEG-4 Simple Profile + Proprietary Tools ? > > OR > > = MPEG-4 Simple Profile + MPEG-2 (DVD) + Proprietary Tools ? > > Rgds > Manish Singhal > Manager > Video & Imaging > Ittiam Systems > India. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darrius "Junto" Thompson > Sent: Fri 10/5/2024 8:44 PM > To: Michael Chertok; infolist@lists.m4if.org; > Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Cc: > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and > -4 differences with quality/bitrates > > All, > > >"DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile > (actually it is missing > a bit in the syntax)." > > Our last release produces a stream that is compliant with > MPEG-4 and should > be correctly parsed by a compliant syntax parser. However we > also discovered > that the encoder writes incorrect values for 'obmc_disable' > field and some of > the fields that are related to timing ( > time_increment_resolution, time_base, > time_increment ). An MPEG-4 compliant decoder that takes > those fields into > account may decode the stream incorrectly. Our next release > will fix these > issues. I hope to have a new release with this fixed as well > as some added > new features within the next 2 weeks if not sooner. > > Please let me know if you have any more questions, ideas or > are interested in > some testing. > > Darrius Thompson (aka Junto) > Director DivX > http://www.divx.com > http://www.projectmayo.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Michael Chertok > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2023 3:13 AM > To: infolist@lists.m4if.org; Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; > Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de > Cc: Darrius "Junto" Thompson > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Hello, Klaus. > You mentioned in your message that: > "DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually > it is missing > a > bit in the syntax)." > Can you tell us, what is this bit, please ? > It's not too late to fix it. > Thank you in advance. > > Regards, > --------------------------------- > Michael Chertok > Adyoron Intelligent Systems Ltd. > E-mail : michael@adyoron.com > URL : www.adyoron.com > Tel : +972 (3) 6491110 (x236) > Fax : +972 (3) 6488849 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Klaus Diepold > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 17:24 > To: Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; infolist@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences > with quality/bitrates > > > Chritophe, > > Dicas GmbH in Berlin is offering a Core Profile encoder SDK, > which offers non-rectangular video objects (Binary Shape Coding). > > It is in fact pretty fast (I think even real-time), > as long as you have the shapes of the non-rectangular video > objects upfront. > > I doubt that MPEG-4 simple visual profile is offering better > compression for > TV quality video than MPEG-2 Main Profile Main Level. This is > also based on > the > fact that simple visual profile is only specified up to CIF > resolution and > to a > maximum bit rate of 384 kbit/sec, while not supporting (of course) > interlaced video. > > DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually > it is missing a > bit in the syntax). > DivX does not obey to the level definitions in the standard, > so you can > actually code video > with high bit rate and higher resolution. > > Cheers > Klaus Diepold > DynaPel Labs > > +-----Original Message----- > +From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org > +[mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of > +Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be > +Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 4:42 PM > +To: infolist@lists.m4if.org > +Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 > differences with > +quality/bitrates > + > + > +Hi All, > + > +Maybe this is a FAQ, but is there a list or reference > +on the differences between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 that > +really tries to explain why MPEG-4 actually provides > +better compression for TV-like quality ? > + > +I looked at the MPEG.org site, but the page from > +Roberto Grandi seems to have disappeared and can't > +be found even by Google, and the "Structure of MPEG-4 > +Video Coding" at HHI Berlin lacks many pictures (I get > +some text in German) and doesn't explain which of all > +those techniques are used in current codecs such as DivX, > +or in the simple visual profile. > + > +Is there any real-time codec up there that can handle > +non-rectangular VOPs ? > + > +Thanks for your help. > + > +Christophe. > +_______________________________________________ > +M4IF General Information list > +Infolist@lists.m4if.org > +http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist > + > + > > > > > _______________________________________________ > M4IF General Information list > Infolist@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist > > > _______________________________________________ M4IF General Information list Infolist@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 9 08:24:57 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF Infolist] Interoperability Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B0481BDDD@exchange.epr.com> In general, these discussions should take place on the Technotes list. This is a list for news about MPEG-4. Having said that, I'd like to note the following. Rebooting machines is never an issue with the standard, but always with the local machine and possibly the MPEG-4 implementation running on that machine. MPEG-4 has defined very detailed specifications for interoperability, enough to achieve just that: interoperability. To use MPEG-4 in a specific environment, it is useful to augment standards like MPEG-4 with specifications like ISMA's. ISMA specifies which conformance points (Profiles and Levels) in the MPEG- 4 standard to use, it is an industrial agreement on using subsets of the MPEG-4 standard. It also specifies how to transport the bits, which MPEG-4 does only partially. In MPEG there has been and stil is very extensive bitstream exchange. This is complemented by the interoperability testing in M4IF and ISMA and other fora. The interop testing in M4IF encompasses exchanging reaw bitstreams and compound MP4 files between different companies, the only aim is to achive full interoperability. It is working towards streaming interop tests. Participants in M4IF are both MPEG members and non-MPEG members. Best, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Ram Kordale [mailto:kordale@kasenna.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2023 12:17 PM To: Tushar N Padhye; infolist@lists.m4if.org Subject: Re: [M4IF Infolist] Interoperability I am new to this list and do not understand m4if well enough. so, please pardon any ignorance in my response. i have had similar experiences. mostly, it has been because most products do not completely specify the codec/profile/level support. Ofcourse, this does not mean that you would need a reboot of a machine. But, in general, i find that getting to a very fine granular level of detail in the specifications is the only way to avoid this problem. This is what organizations like the ISMA help achieve. They help nail down specifications to a much finer level, build conformance tools and conformance programs. Of course, this is ongoing work and hopefully by the end of the year, you should have ISMA stamped devices that will definitely interoperate. Thanks. Ram At 07:11 PM 10/4/2024 +0530, Tushar N Padhye wrote: Hi There might be a fundamental flaw in my logic and I'd appreciate if someone could correct me. I created a .MP4 file using the Dicas encoder. And I try playing it with the Philips MPEG-4 player.. Guess what I had to reboot my machine. If the MPEG-4 standard aims at interoperability then I should assume that any player should play a .MP4 file no matter whose MPEG4 encoder I use. Can any one share their thoughts on this ? Regards, Tushar -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Diepold [ mailto:Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de ] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 8:54 PM To: Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; infolist@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences with quality/bitrates Chritophe, Dicas GmbH in Berlin is offering a Core Profile encoder SDK, which offers non-rectangular video objects (Binary Shape Coding). It is in fact pretty fast (I think even real-time), as long as you have the shapes of the non-rectangular video objects upfront. I doubt that MPEG-4 simple visual profile is offering better compression for TV quality video than MPEG-2 Main Profile Main Level. This is also based on the fact that simple visual profile is only specified up to CIF resolution and to a maximum bit rate of 384 kbit/sec, while not supporting (of course) interlaced video. DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually it is missing a bit in the syntax). DivX does not obey to the level definitions in the standard, so you can actually code video with high bit rate and higher resolution. Cheers Klaus Diepold DynaPel Labs +-----Original Message----- +From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org +[ mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org ]On Behalf Of +Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be +Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 4:42 PM +To: infolist@lists.m4if.org +Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences with +quality/bitrates + + +Hi All, + +Maybe this is a FAQ, but is there a list or reference +on the differences between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 that +really tries to explain why MPEG-4 actually provides +better compression for TV-like quality ? + +I looked at the MPEG.org site, but the page from +Roberto Grandi seems to have disappeared and can't +be found even by Google, and the "Structure of MPEG-4 +Video Coding" at HHI Berlin lacks many pictures (I get +some text in German) and doesn't explain which of all +those techniques are used in current codecs such as DivX, +or in the simple visual profile. + +Is there any real-time codec up there that can handle +non-rectangular VOPs ? + +Thanks for your help. + +Christophe. +_______________________________________________ +M4IF General Information list +Infolist@lists.m4if.org + http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist + + _______________________________________________ M4IF General Information list Infolist@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011009/95046de1/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 9 08:24:57 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF Infolist] Interoperability Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B0481BDDD@exchange.epr.com> In general, these discussions should take place on the Technotes list. This is a list for news about MPEG-4. Having said that, I'd like to note the following. Rebooting machines is never an issue with the standard, but always with the local machine and possibly the MPEG-4 implementation running on that machine. MPEG-4 has defined very detailed specifications for interoperability, enough to achieve just that: interoperability. To use MPEG-4 in a specific environment, it is useful to augment standards like MPEG-4 with specifications like ISMA's. ISMA specifies which conformance points (Profiles and Levels) in the MPEG- 4 standard to use, it is an industrial agreement on using subsets of the MPEG-4 standard. It also specifies how to transport the bits, which MPEG-4 does only partially. In MPEG there has been and stil is very extensive bitstream exchange. This is complemented by the interoperability testing in M4IF and ISMA and other fora. The interop testing in M4IF encompasses exchanging reaw bitstreams and compound MP4 files between different companies, the only aim is to achive full interoperability. It is working towards streaming interop tests. Participants in M4IF are both MPEG members and non-MPEG members. Best, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Ram Kordale [mailto:kordale@kasenna.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2023 12:17 PM To: Tushar N Padhye; infolist@lists.m4if.org Subject: Re: [M4IF Infolist] Interoperability I am new to this list and do not understand m4if well enough. so, please pardon any ignorance in my response. i have had similar experiences. mostly, it has been because most products do not completely specify the codec/profile/level support. Ofcourse, this does not mean that you would need a reboot of a machine. But, in general, i find that getting to a very fine granular level of detail in the specifications is the only way to avoid this problem. This is what organizations like the ISMA help achieve. They help nail down specifications to a much finer level, build conformance tools and conformance programs. Of course, this is ongoing work and hopefully by the end of the year, you should have ISMA stamped devices that will definitely interoperate. Thanks. Ram At 07:11 PM 10/4/2024 +0530, Tushar N Padhye wrote: Hi There might be a fundamental flaw in my logic and I'd appreciate if someone could correct me. I created a .MP4 file using the Dicas encoder. And I try playing it with the Philips MPEG-4 player.. Guess what I had to reboot my machine. If the MPEG-4 standard aims at interoperability then I should assume that any player should play a .MP4 file no matter whose MPEG4 encoder I use. Can any one share their thoughts on this ? Regards, Tushar -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Diepold [ mailto:Klaus.Diepold@dynapel.de ] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 8:54 PM To: Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be; infolist@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences with quality/bitrates Chritophe, Dicas GmbH in Berlin is offering a Core Profile encoder SDK, which offers non-rectangular video objects (Binary Shape Coding). It is in fact pretty fast (I think even real-time), as long as you have the shapes of the non-rectangular video objects upfront. I doubt that MPEG-4 simple visual profile is offering better compression for TV quality video than MPEG-2 Main Profile Main Level. This is also based on the fact that simple visual profile is only specified up to CIF resolution and to a maximum bit rate of 384 kbit/sec, while not supporting (of course) interlaced video. DivX is almost conformant to simple visual profile (actually it is missing a bit in the syntax). DivX does not obey to the level definitions in the standard, so you can actually code video with high bit rate and higher resolution. Cheers Klaus Diepold DynaPel Labs +-----Original Message----- +From: infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org +[ mailto:infolist-admin@lists.m4if.org ]On Behalf Of +Christophe.Vermeulen@alcatel.be +Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2023 4:42 PM +To: infolist@lists.m4if.org +Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Relationship of MPEG-2 and -4 differences with +quality/bitrates + + +Hi All, + +Maybe this is a FAQ, but is there a list or reference +on the differences between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 that +really tries to explain why MPEG-4 actually provides +better compression for TV-like quality ? + +I looked at the MPEG.org site, but the page from +Roberto Grandi seems to have disappeared and can't +be found even by Google, and the "Structure of MPEG-4 +Video Coding" at HHI Berlin lacks many pictures (I get +some text in German) and doesn't explain which of all +those techniques are used in current codecs such as DivX, +or in the simple visual profile. + +Is there any real-time codec up there that can handle +non-rectangular VOPs ? + +Thanks for your help. + +Christophe. +_______________________________________________ +M4IF General Information list +Infolist@lists.m4if.org + http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist + + _______________________________________________ M4IF General Information list Infolist@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011009/95046de1/attachment-0001.html From jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr Wed Oct 10 10:55:45 2001 From: jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr (Jean-Claude Dufourd) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] A question on MPEG4 BifsEnc input file format References: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F0191045E@CI0027EXCH001U> Message-ID: <3BC3FF01.FC9EAFA4@enst.fr> "Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)" wrote: > in Im1Core reference software, the Bifs encoder input file is as > circle.txt, I wonder whether it is VRML compliant? It is more than VRML (BIFS extensions, e.g. BIFS Commands and new nodes) and also less strict than VRML about some of the syntax. In the coreXX/docs directory, see a complete spec in the file BifsEnc.doc Best regards JC -- Jean-Claude Dufourd @======================================@ ENST, Dept COMELEC The wing, over the big rock... 46, rue Barrault @======================================@ 75013 Paris Tel: +33145817807 Fax: +33145804036 From sps iis.fhg.de Thu Oct 11 13:37:51 2001 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:57 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: MPEG-4 V2 Audio Reference Software References: <000201c149a1$3ed36c10$0100a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <3BC5767F.F492DC81@iis.fhg.de> Dear Ivan, others, you may find the requested information here: http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/29w42911.htm Best regards, Ralph Ivan Dimkovic wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does anybody know the status of the MPEG-4 V2 Audio Reference Software > (incorporating AAC Low-Delay, and ER tools), known as 14496-5 AMD1 ? Is it > (and when) planned for release? > > We need AAC LD decoder in order to test and debug optimized Low-Delay > encoder. > > Kindest Regards, > > ************************************************* > Ivan Dimkovic, MPEG-4 Solutions Developer > > PsyTEL Research > Multimedia Coding Solutions > Belgrade, Yugoslavia > > phone: +381 64 11 40 600 > +381 63 264 334 > > fax: +381 11 32 25 275 > > email: dim@psytel-research.co.yu > www: http://www.psytel-research.co.yu > ************************************************* > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 336 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011011/02d040c9/sps.bin From garysull microsoft.com Thu Oct 11 16:40:17 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040C1D99@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From garysull microsoft.com Thu Oct 11 18:16:15 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help with MPEG-4 Visual/Natural reference software Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040C1D9E@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From lpearlst ati.com Fri Oct 12 11:26:18 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help with MPEG-4 Visual/Natural reference so ftware Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FD3@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Hi Gary, Thanks for checking into this. I have now run the vcon-ge1.cmp Conformance Test bitstream through the latest Microsoft software, and I still find anomalous results. I believe that the problem stems from the way the source material was used in encoding. This bitstream indicates rectangular dimensions of 720 x 576. When the bitstream is decoded, and pictures are examined assuming an output YUV12 file with a height of 576 lines the results are garbled. On the other hand, if the resulting file is examined assuming that the format is YUV12, at 720 x 480, then the resulting pictures appear as one might expect. I am guessing that a 720 x 480 YUV12 source file was fed into an encoder configured to accept data in the 720 x 576 format. This was quite confusing for me, since I was decoding one frame at a time, and found very strange results looking at any given 720 x 576 output frame. If my hypothesis can be confirmed then, for the sake of future MPEG-4 users, I suggest that we issue a Corrigendum to the Conformance part, and recreate the vcon-ge1.cmp bitstream, and any other bitstreams that may have been similarly affected. Regards, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:garysull@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2023 8:16 PM To: Larry Pearlstein; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help with MPEG-4 Visual/Natural reference software I contacted the Microsoft software coordinator. He says that the FDIS version 1.0 software is pretty old stuff, and the final version 2 software can be obtained from http://numbernine.net/robotbugs/mpeg4.htm as Microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip and that is the most stable available version. If the phenomenon persists in the version 2 software, then the question becomes more pertinent. -Gary -----Original Message----- From: Larry Pearlstein [mailto:lpearlst@ati.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2023 8:04 AM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help with MPEG-4 Visual/Natural reference software Hi, I've been playing with the MPEG-4 Visual Reference Software, FDIS version 1.0, Natural, decoder software from both Microsoft and MoMuSys. I've built and run both under Visual C++ under WinNT. I have decoded the reference bitstream vcon-ge1.cmp, which contains the ping-pong sequence. The VideoObjectLayer header specifies a rectangular format of 720 x 576. I trace both decoders, and I see the 720 x 576 dimension at the dump routine. But when I examine the output files (planar 4:2:0 YUV, with multiple frames concatenated in one file) I find that both Microsoft and MoMuSys seem to produce pictures formatted at 720 x 480. Any ideas why this might be happening? Also, I have tried to subscribe to the MoMuSys reflector, but the EMAIL address seems bad. Is there still an active MoMuSys reflector? Thanks, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011012/2067c03c/attachment.html From gregorio_litinsky hotmail.com Sun Oct 14 16:24:01 2001 From: gregorio_litinsky hotmail.com (Gregorio Litinsky) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: I am investigating the use and benefits of B-frames for low bit rate communication. As you all probably know, B-frames are commonly used in MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 compression. They are bi-directionally predicted in the same fashion from either preceding or subsequent I- or P-frames. Where a P-frame generally requires 1/2 of the data of an I-frame, a B-frame requires only 1/4. Could you please help me with the following questions: 1. What is the minimum bit and frame rate where B-frames improve the quality? A minimum of 10 fps and 144 Kbps has been mentioned. 2. Which profile supports B-frames? MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile supports B-frames, but I understand that this profile requires support for temporal and spatial scalability? Is it possible from a compliance perspective to only support B-frames in the MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile? 3. H.263 (Profile 8) does also support B-frames (Annex M). Is this codec better than MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile? 4. Does the MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Visual Profile support B-frames? 5. Does the new H.26L codec support B-frames? 6. Which profile/codes do you recommend for supporting B-frames? 7. Where can I find documentation about profiles/codecs supporting B-frames? Best Regards, Gregorio Litinsky Consultant _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From shivakumar asu.edu Sun Oct 14 13:05:14 2001 From: shivakumar asu.edu (Shivakumar Narayanan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Urgent Message-ID: <002401c154e3$2809e110$6229a995@lsbkumarpc25> Hi All, Can anyone guide me to where I can get Sequences (CIF) with its .seg files for object based coding or can anyone help me in telling how to create one's own .seg files. Regards, Shiva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011014/c8924ee7/attachment.html From ramki emuzed.com Mon Oct 15 10:41:45 2001 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames References: Message-ID: <003801c1552f$844a99f0$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Hi, Answers to some of the questions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregorio Litinsky" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2023 8:54 PM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames > Dear Colleagues: > > I am investigating the use and benefits of B-frames for low bit rate > communication. > > As you all probably know, B-frames are commonly used in MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 > compression. They are bi-directionally predicted in the same fashion from > either preceding or subsequent I- or P-frames. Where a P-frame generally > requires 1/2 of the data of an I-frame, a B-frame requires only 1/4. > > Could you please help me with the following questions: > > 1. What is the minimum bit and frame rate where B-frames improve the > quality? A minimum of 10 fps and 144 Kbps has been mentioned. > 2. Which profile supports B-frames? MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile > supports B-frames, but I understand that this profile requires support for > temporal and spatial scalability? Is it possible from a compliance > perspective to only support B-frames in the MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual > Profile? Many profiles supoort B frames. Refer to Section 9 on profiles and levels for further details. > 3. H.263 (Profile 8) does also support B-frames (Annex M). Is this codec > better than MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile? > 4. Does the MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Visual Profile support B-frames? Yes.. > 5. Does the new H.26L codec support B-frames? Yes. > 6. Which profile/codes do you recommend for supporting B-frames? In case of MPEG-4, advanced simple profile. > 7. Where can I find documentation about profiles/codecs supporting B-frames? > Section 9. > Best Regards, > > Gregorio Litinsky > Consultant > Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com From lpearlst ati.com Mon Oct 15 10:10:45 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FDB@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Gregorio, You may want to look at: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2308 Visual Communications and Image Processing '94 Paper #: 2308-139 Adaptive frame type selection for low bit-rate video coding, pp.1411-1422 Author(s): Jungwoo Lee, Princeton Univ., Princeton, NJ, USA; Bradley W. Dickinson, Princeton Univ., Princeton, NJ, USA. and also ... J. Lee, and Bradley W. Dickinson, "Rate Distortion Optimized Frame Type Selection for MPEG Encoding," IEEE Transactions on Circuits and Systems for Video Technology, Vol. 7, No. 3, June 1997. Their experiments show cases where the optimal pattern of frame types is based on a surprisingly high number of B frames. Best wishes, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Ramkishor Korada [mailto:ramki@emuzed.com] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2023 12:12 AM To: Gregorio Litinsky; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames Hi, Answers to some of the questions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregorio Litinsky" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2023 8:54 PM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Use of B-frames > Dear Colleagues: > > I am investigating the use and benefits of B-frames for low bit rate > communication. > > As you all probably know, B-frames are commonly used in MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 > compression. They are bi-directionally predicted in the same fashion from > either preceding or subsequent I- or P-frames. Where a P-frame generally > requires 1/2 of the data of an I-frame, a B-frame requires only 1/4. > > Could you please help me with the following questions: > > 1. What is the minimum bit and frame rate where B-frames improve the > quality? A minimum of 10 fps and 144 Kbps has been mentioned. > 2. Which profile supports B-frames? MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile > supports B-frames, but I understand that this profile requires support for > temporal and spatial scalability? Is it possible from a compliance > perspective to only support B-frames in the MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual > Profile? Many profiles supoort B frames. Refer to Section 9 on profiles and levels for further details. > 3. H.263 (Profile 8) does also support B-frames (Annex M). Is this codec > better than MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Visual Profile? > 4. Does the MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Visual Profile support B-frames? Yes.. > 5. Does the new H.26L codec support B-frames? Yes. > 6. Which profile/codes do you recommend for supporting B-frames? In case of MPEG-4, advanced simple profile. > 7. Where can I find documentation about profiles/codecs supporting B-frames? > Section 9. > Best Regards, > > Litinsky > Consultant > Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011015/985514f2/attachment.html From arvind.raman ittiam.com Mon Oct 15 19:25:05 2001 From: arvind.raman ittiam.com (Arvind Raman) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:58 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Error Recovery and Concealment at 10^(-3) BER Message-ID: <45A1F95BB9D7D84FAB0A1EB4D67EEF96147171@IS01EX01.ittiam.com> I am currently carrying out experiments on Error recovery and concealment at Bit Error Rates (BERs) of 10^(-4) and 10^(-3). Though I could good pretty good results at 10^(-4) with just a data partitioned bitstream (without using RVLC), it doesn't really work well at BERs as high as 10^(-3). I feel that the packet size (at a certain bitrate) could play a crucial role in deciding how good the algorithm works at such high BERs. I would thus like to know 1. What would be an ideal packet size to use, at BERs as high as 10^(-3) for 64 kbps 2. Is it possible to error conceal a 10^(-3) BER affeted bitstream so as to get no visual degradation. If so, is it possible only thru the use of RVLCs. Thanks a lot for your time and help. regards Arvind Raman Ittiam Systems Counsalate 1, #1 Richmond Road Bangalore - 560 025 Karnataka, India Tel : +91 - 80 - 2237760/660 (ext - 1027) From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Mon Oct 15 15:08:38 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:59 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation In-Reply-To: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040C1D99@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <003501c155a4$6b014f50$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Dear Gary and all, The document seems to be correct. I think it is the the reference software that needs to be changed to fit what document says. So the sw_int reflector may also be suitable for this discussion Regards, Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Gary Sullivan Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2023 6:40 PM To: Larry Pearlstein; M4IF TechNotes Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation I've investigated this off-reflector with Mathias Wien and Simon Winder. It seems that this is a correct report of a problem in the MPEG-4 Visual specification -- the quarter-pel motion in the document is different from what is in the software. Both versions of software are the same, but they differ from what is in the document. We plan to add this to the list of problem reports for MPEG-4 Visual and it will be considered by MPEG at its next meeting. The expected outcome at this time is to work toward changing the document to fit what the software is doing. -Gary Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: Larry Pearlstein [mailto:lpearlst@ati.com] Sent: Monday, October 08, 2023 3:10 PM To: 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation /* It seems that the drawing in my previous EMAIL did not make it */ /* This is a resend with the drawing replaced by ASCII art */ Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, I am confused about MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation. I'm not sure that the standard agrees with the "Microsoft" reference software implementation. I did not look at the MoMuSys implementation. I'm using the software in WG11 document n4278. In discussing my concern, I will refer to the figure below: 0 1/4 1/2 3/4 0 p x o x p 1/4 x X x X 1/2 o X c X o 3/4 x X x X p x o x p The features are intended to convey the following information: p - represent actual pixel values in reference picture o - represent prediction values that would arise from vertical or horizontal motion offset by exactly 1/2 pel (i.e. one dimension has offset = 1/2, other dimension has offset = 0). c - represents prediction value that would arise from both vertical and horizontal motion offset of 1/2 x or X - represents prediction values where either or both of the vertical and horizontal offsets are not integer, or 1/2. x - represent prediction values where the Microsoft reference code matches my understanding of the spec X - represents prediction values where the Microsoft reference code does not match my understanding of the spec. My interpretation of the spec is that the open circle positions and the open square position should be computed by applying the 8-tap horizontal filter (where appropriate), rounding and clipping, the applying the 8-tap vertical filter (where appropriate) followed by rounding and clipping. Then, each of the 'x' or 'X' positions should be computed via bilinear interpolation based on circle or square positions, followed by rounding. The "Microsoft" implementation only implements two passes. First a horizontal pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for horizontal offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Then a vertical pass which does 8-tap filtering, round and clip, followed by bilinear interpolation for vertical offsets of 1/4 and 3/4. Although the linear operations of 8-tap filtering and bilinear filtering, both vertically and horizontally, are commutative, the non-linear steps of rounding and clipping, required by the specification, may not permit commutation of operations. In particular, it seems that the specification requires that the offsets marked by the red X's be computed based on bilinear operation involving the open-square value. This is not being done in the Microsoft implementation. Comments, help? Thanks, Larry Pearlstein ATI -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 13564 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011015/1c6bf59e/winmail.bin From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Mon Oct 15 17:03:37 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:59 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Error Recovery and Concealment at 10^(-3) BER In-Reply-To: <45A1F95BB9D7D84FAB0A1EB4D67EEF96147171@IS01EX01.ittiam.com> Message-ID: <004901c155b4$7a770820$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> You can refer to VM document, which suggests resynchronization marker spacing. These resynchronization marker spacing are determined based on the tests conducted with BER of up to 10^ -2. PS: It is not very clear whether you are talking about error resiliency or error concealment -Prabhu ObjectVideo -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Arvind Raman Sent: Monday, October 15, 2023 8:55 AM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Error Recovery and Concealment at 10^(-3) BER I am currently carrying out experiments on Error recovery and concealment at Bit Error Rates (BERs) of 10^(-4) and 10^(-3). Though I could good pretty good results at 10^(-4) with just a data partitioned bitstream (without using RVLC), it doesn't really work well at BERs as high as 10^(-3). I feel that the packet size (at a certain bitrate) could play a crucial role in deciding how good the algorithm works at such high BERs. I would thus like to know 1. What would be an ideal packet size to use, at BERs as high as 10^(-3) for 64 kbps 2. Is it possible to error conceal a 10^(-3) BER affeted bitstream so as to get no visual degradation. If so, is it possible only thru the use of RVLCs. Thanks a lot for your time and help. regards Arvind Raman Ittiam Systems Counsalate 1, #1 Richmond Road Bangalore - 560 025 Karnataka, India Tel : +91 - 80 - 2237760/660 (ext - 1027) _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2628 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011015/b4f99369/winmail.bin From ramki emuzed.com Tue Oct 16 12:26:09 2001 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:06:59 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Urgent References: <002401c154e3$2809e110$6229a995@lsbkumarpc25> Message-ID: <022b01c15607$44b580b0$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Try this link http://viola.usc.edu/extranet/Projects/media-mpeg4seg/default.htm regards, ramkishor Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivakumar Narayanan To: m4if technotes Sent: Monday, October 15, 2023 12:35 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Urgent Hi All, Can anyone guide me to where I can get Sequences (CIF) with its .seg files for object based coding or can anyone help me in telling how to create one's own .seg files. Regards, Shiva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011016/bc1ca65f/attachment.html From Klaus.Diepold dynapel.de Tue Oct 16 10:57:00 2001 From: Klaus.Diepold dynapel.de (Klaus Diepold) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:00 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation In-Reply-To: <003501c155a4$6b014f50$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1156 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011016/5ac0ffcf/winmail.bin From lpearlst ati.com Wed Oct 17 15:15:00 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:00 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FEA@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Dear M4IF participants, In the MPEG-4 spec, it says: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." But the syntax doesn't seem to preclude 4MV when doing interlaced VOLs. Presumably the syntax supports 4MV in interlaced if field_prediction = 0. Is 4MV prohibited for VOLs where interlaced = 1? Thank you for your help. Best wishes, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011017/18c17a8c/attachment.html From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Wed Oct 17 16:44:16 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:00 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question In-Reply-To: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FEA@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Message-ID: <002001c15744$1b958160$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Larry, 4MV is ?not? prohibited for VOL with interlaced =1 -Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Larry Pearlstein Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 2:15 PM To: 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Dear M4IF participants, In the MPEG-4 spec, it says: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." But the syntax doesn't seem to preclude 4MV when doing interlaced VOLs. Presumably the syntax supports 4MV in interlaced if field_prediction = 0. Is 4MV prohibited for VOLs where interlaced = 1? Thank you for your help. Best wishes, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011017/4205fc65/attachment.html From lpearlst ati.com Wed Oct 17 17:12:29 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:00 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FEE@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Prabhu, Thank you for your response. But I'm still wondering how to interpret the line from 7.6.2 that I quoted. One possible interpretation is that this refers to the fact that progressive VOPs can use reduced resolution decoding, where the block size is 16 x 16. But I had assumed that the quote was referring to M & N mentioned in 7.6.2.2. Perhaps the quoted line should read: "The sample interpolation for the case of non-integer motion vectors PRODUCES 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks WHEN INTERLACED = 0 OR FIELD_PREDICTION != 1 and PRODUCES 16x8 field blocks when INTERLACED = 1 AND FIELD_PREDICTION =1." instead of: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." It seems that 7.6.2 assumes the definition of "progressive macroblock" and "interlaced macroblock". Is there such a definition in the standard? Best wishes, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 3:44 PM To: 'Larry Pearlstein'; 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Larry, 4MV is "not" prohibited for VOL with interlaced =1 -Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Larry Pearlstein Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 2:15 PM To: 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Dear M4IF participants, In the MPEG-4 spec, it says: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." But the syntax doesn't seem to preclude 4MV when doing interlaced VOLs. Presumably the syntax supports 4MV in interlaced if field_prediction = 0. Is 4MV prohibited for VOLs where interlaced = 1? Thank you for your help. Best wishes, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011017/4215c967/attachment.html From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Wed Oct 17 17:54:15 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:01 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question In-Reply-To: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FEE@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Message-ID: <002b01c1574d$e2497dd0$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Larry, That particular sentence in the standard although is not very specific, but it is not wrong. Usually it is better to look at the syntax for such specific things. PS: Standard defines ?progressive? and ?interlace? terms -Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Larry Pearlstein Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 4:12 PM To: 'Prabhudev Hosur'; 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Prabhu, Thank you for your response. But I'm still wondering how to interpret the line from 7.6.2 that I quoted. One possible interpretation is that this refers to the fact that progressive VOPs can use reduced resolution decoding, where the block size is 16 x 16. But I had assumed that the quote was referring to M & N mentioned in 7.6.2.2. Perhaps the quoted line should read: "The sample interpolation for the case of non-integer motion vectors PRODUCES 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks WHEN INTERLACED = 0 OR FIELD_PREDICTION != 1 and PRODUCES 16x8 field blocks when INTERLACED = 1 AND FIELD_PREDICTION =1." instead of: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." It seems that 7.6.2 assumes the definition of "progressive macroblock" and "interlaced macroblock". Is there such a definition in the standard? Best wishes, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 3:44 PM To: 'Larry Pearlstein'; 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Larry, 4MV is ?not? prohibited for VOL with interlaced =1 -Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Larry Pearlstein Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 2:15 PM To: 'M4IF TechNotes' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 4MV/interlaced question Dear M4IF participants, In the MPEG-4 spec, it says: "The sample interpolation in case of non-integer motion vectors is performed for 16x16 or 8x8 frame blocks in case of progressive and for 16x8 field blocks in case of interlaced macroblocks." But the syntax doesn't seem to preclude 4MV when doing interlaced VOLs. Presumably the syntax supports 4MV in interlaced if field_prediction = 0. Is 4MV prohibited for VOLs where interlaced = 1? Thank you for your help. Best wishes, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011017/cc402123/attachment.html From pang ati.com Thu Oct 18 11:21:29 2001 From: pang ati.com (Patrick Ng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:02 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Message-ID: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FE3@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, The interlaced direct mode motion vector decoding of BVOPs as implemented in the Microsoft reference software (CVideoObjectDecoder::decodeMVofBVOP() in file mvdec.cpp) seems to deviate from what is described in the ISO/IEC 14496-2 spec. (section 7.7.2.2, p.235-236). Am I missing something? I wonder if these two methods decode to the same motion vector? The version of the refernce software I am looking at is July 3rd 2000 Version 2 FDAM1-2.3-001213 Version 2.3.0 Thanks Patrick Ng ATI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011018/804986e1/attachment.html From khuber sorensontech.com Thu Oct 18 11:00:18 2001 From: khuber sorensontech.com (Kris Huber) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:02 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Message-ID: <6E031E06378BD311AEF20090273CE1BA409351@el-postino.s-vision.com> Hello Patrick, I suggest you look for a counterexample demonstrating that the two methods do not always decode to the same motion vector (I'm not certain myself). I checked that the 7.7.2.2 text hasn't been modified by corrigenda items, but it is possible you've run into a new problem with either the text or the reference software that needs to become part of the next corrigendum on 14496-2. Best regards, Kris -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Ng [mailto:pang@ati.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 8:21 AM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, The interlaced direct mode motion vector decoding of BVOPs as implemented in the Microsoft reference software (CVideoObjectDecoder::decodeMVofBVOP() in file mvdec.cpp) seems to deviate from what is described in the ISO/IEC 14496-2 spec. (section 7.7.2.2, p.235-236). Am I missing something? I wonder if these two methods decode to the same motion vector? The version of the refernce software I am looking at is July 3rd 2000 Version 2 FDAM1-2.3-001213 Version 2.3.0 Thanks Patrick Ng ATI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011018/5fa43150/attachment.html From gchandra tataelxsi.co.in Thu Oct 18 23:02:42 2001 From: gchandra tataelxsi.co.in (G Chandra Sekhar Reddy) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:02 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] problem with hinted MP4 files Message-ID: <00d501c157f2$82b49760$cc14010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Hi All, As I understand, in the MP4 (MPEG4 File Format) file, The SampleTableAtom of any track which references some data, shall contain the mandatory atoms SampleDescription, SampleSize, SampleToChunk, and ChunkOffset atoms. All these atoms collectively give the time, size, offset... of every sample in that Track. This is the case with all of the normal MP4 files I have gone through. But the problem comes with HINTED MP4 files. In the hinted (for RTP) MP4 file (the files I have gone through), These Atoms in SampleTableAtom of the original track DO NOT give any of these time, size offset... etc. for any samples The entry_count field in all of these atoms is 0 (ZERO). The Atoms in SampleTableAtom of the HINT track (which hints the above said original track) will have some info regarding that protocol (RTP in my case). SUMMARY OF THE STORY: The problem is that the original track in hinted MP4 files is useless (not useful without hint track) in this case. What I expected was that the original track will give all info as usually, but the optional hint track should help in sending the data through that protocol. And there can be multiple hint tracks (for different protocols) for the same track. I am missing anything? Chandra ********************************************************************** Chandra Sekhar Reddy G., DSP & Multimedia Group, (DD2), TATA ELXSI Ltd., WhiteField Road, Hoody, BANGALORE, INDIA - 560048. TEL: +91-80-8410148, 8411811, 8411812 (Ext:254/255), FAX: +91-80-8410152, 8411813. EMAIL: gchandra@tataelxsi.co.in WEB: www.tataelxsi.com ********************************************************************** From pang ati.com Thu Oct 18 13:53:35 2001 From: pang ati.com (Patrick Ng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:02 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Message-ID: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FE6@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Hello Kris, Thank you for the reply. After digging deeper into the reference code. I found that the Microsoft Video Reference Code DOES implement the same as in the spec. 14496-2. The fact is the motion vectors as decoded in CVideoObjectDecoder::decodeMVofBVOP() in file mvdec.cpp are totally ignored in the motion compensation later on. In motion compensation (CVideoObject::motionCompDirectMode() in file mc.cpp), the interlaced direct mode motion vectors are recalculated according to the spec. and then used for subsequent motion compensation. I guess the problem was due to some redundant code in decodeMVofBVOP() hasn't been cleaned up after new function motionCompDirectMode() is added. Sorry for raising a false alarm. Patrick Ng ATI -----Original Message----- From: Kris Huber [mailto:khuber@sorensontech.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 12:00 PM To: 'Patrick Ng' Cc: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Hello Patrick, I suggest you look for a counterexample demonstrating that the two methods do not always decode to the same motion vector (I'm not certain myself). I checked that the 7.7.2.2 text hasn't been modified by corrigenda items, but it is possible you've run into a new problem with either the text or the reference software that needs to become part of the next corrigendum on 14496-2. Best regards, Kris -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Ng [mailto:pang@ati.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 8:21 AM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Interlaced Direct mode for BVOPs Dear MPEG-4 colleagues, The interlaced direct mode motion vector decoding of BVOPs as implemented in the Microsoft reference software (CVideoObjectDecoder::decodeMVofBVOP() in file mvdec.cpp) seems to deviate from what is described in the ISO/IEC 14496-2 spec. (section 7.7.2.2, p.235-236). Am I missing something? I wonder if these two methods decode to the same motion vector? The version of the refernce software I am looking at is July 3rd 2000 Version 2 FDAM1-2.3-001213 Version 2.3.0 Thanks Patrick Ng ATI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011018/305c6c56/attachment.html From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Thu Oct 18 10:55:56 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:03 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A41C@NTGELEXCHANGE> We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the MPEG4 overview in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of the overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow millisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011018/c4553bee/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Oct 18 11:36:58 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:03 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB9912@exchange.epr.com> Mariano, I hope you will get more qualified and detailed answers from better experts than me, but a general answer is that you do not need Flextime to accomplish this. Even without Flextime, MPEG-4 Systems supports synchronous streaming of text, as it supports tight synchronization between all of the object types (Audio, Visual, graphics). Yes, subtitle streams can be considered (are) MPEG-4 objects. Inviting other comments, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 9:56 AM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the MPEG4 overview in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of the overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow millisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011018/e7c769b0/attachment.html From young techway.co.kr Fri Oct 19 14:09:02 2001 From: young techway.co.kr (Lim, Young-Kwon) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:03 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) References: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A41C@NTGELEXCHANGE> Message-ID: <006b01c15853$c99d8cc0$02efebd3@Young> Dear Mario and all, Basically, FlexTime provides additional flexible synchronization capability to MPEG-4. MPEG standards including MPEG-1, 2, and 4 are using absolute synchronization mechanism, that is, something shall be presented at the certain time. But FlexTime provides a way to define relative synchronization between medias, for example, the media A shall stop when the media B stops. Conventional timing model is assuming the service requiring strict control of media and the terminal resource. But FlexTime is assuming the Web-like applications which is very flexible. So you can choose one or another based on your requirement. As Rob explained subtitle can be an independent MPEG-4 object and you can synchronize it with other medias by using strict Timestamps or FlexTime. Please let me know if you need any detailed explanation. Sincerely, Young-Kwon Lim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mariano Padilla To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Cc: Scott Rose Sent: Friday, October 19, 2023 1:55 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the MPEG4 overview in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of the overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow millisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011019/31b4e972/attachment.html From lpearlst ati.com Fri Oct 19 09:44:03 2001 From: lpearlst ati.com (Larry Pearlstein) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:03 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Max. unique quant tables? Message-ID: <5337D585DDD3D111996B0008C728F07DFA9FFF@pa00fsr01.pa.atitech.com> Dear MPEG-4 experts, In the MPEG-4 Standard, in the tables describing the limits on profiles and levels, there is a column labeled "Max Unique Quant Tables". I would appreciate help in understanding exactly what this number refers to. Thank you, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011019/28d2f34c/attachment.html From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Fri Oct 19 10:41:48 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: MPEG 4 Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A42E@NTGELEXCHANGE> Again, I thank you all for your comments. Hence, if someone on the list can answer my below questions. Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:34 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 I second Michelle's proposal to send to the list. However, oit looks to me as if your issue is with the implementation you are using, not with the standard. Jerky playback is not something that is built into MPEG-4. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2023 9:25 AM To: 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? I thank you all for your comments. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Michelle Y Kim [ mailto:mykim@us.ibm.com ] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:21 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, Since I don't know what kind of problems you're trying to solve, I can only offer you the following very general response, and will have to echo Rob and ask you to bring this to the reflector. If you want to achieve frame-level synchronization of subtitles and video, and if the video delivery is reliable, then you can achieve synchronization without FlexTime. You can simply align video timestamps to those of BIFS that contain subtitles. Note that presently MPEG-4 does not support text streams. Text in MPEG-4 is delivered in BIFS as timed insertions and deletions, where the timestamps can be as accurate as you wish. The level of synchornization you can from MPEG-4 is at a finer granularity than SMIL if you're coming from the SMIL experience. But if the video delivery is non-deterministic, then FlexTime is a technic you can use, which I can help you with, as I understand the nature of your question better. Regards, Michelle Michelle Y. Kim, Ph. D. Manager, Composite Media Technologies IBM T. J. Watson Research Center 30 Saw Mill River Road, Hawthorne NY, 10532 mykim@us.ibm.com phone: 914-784-7709, fax: 914-784-7455 (tie: 863-7709) Rob Koenen on 10/18/2001 12:43:01 PM To: "'Mariano Padilla'" , Rob Koenen cc: Scott Rose , Michelle Y Kim/Watson/IBM@IBMUS Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Again I suggest that you ask these questions on the list. But I copy Michelle Kim of IBM - there is no better expert on flextime to be found. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [ mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com ] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 9:38 AM To: 'Rob Koenen' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Rob, Thank you. I will subscribe. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the overview, written by you, in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of your overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow milisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Thanks again, Mariano -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [ mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com ] Sent: Wed, October 17, 2023 5:17 PM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; Rob Koenen Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, you can ask me but I am not the best source for technical details. I could forward your questions to experts. I would suggest, however, that you subscribe yourself to the technotes mailing list of the MPEG-4 Industry Forum (this is a public list) and ask your question there. Then I will monitor that you indeed do get an answer. See http://www.m4if.org and in particular http://www.m4if.org/public/publiclistreg.html Hope this helps, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [ mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com ] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 5:11 PM To: 'rob@intertrust.com' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: MPEG 4 Rob, I got your e-mail address form the MPEG-4 standards article and I have a couple of questions, specifically regarding section 8.3 'FlexTime' and synchronization of subtitles. Can I address these questions to you, or if you have someone else that can answer them for me? Please advise. We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. I thank you in advanced for the time spent. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011019/c8e0e6b3/attachment.html From yangwj lucent.com Mon Oct 22 10:22:22 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on wall clock Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104B1@CI0027EXCH001U> hi: What is wall clock in MPEG4 system? Thanks Mac From yangwj lucent.com Mon Oct 22 11:08:56 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104B3@CI0027EXCH001U> hi,all: there is synchronization/configuration mechanism in MPEG4 AU,Can we skip RTP/RTCP to make connections between server and client in LAN? Thanks Mac From yangwj lucent.com Mon Oct 22 11:18:34 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104B5@CI0027EXCH001U> hi,all: I have confusions on MPEG2 TS and mp4 file generated by flexmux in MPEG4. 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. in figure1-1 in MPEG4 system standard. 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? Thanks Mac From young techway.co.kr Mon Oct 22 14:36:56 2001 From: young techway.co.kr (Lim, Young-Kwon) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP References: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104B3@CI0027EXCH001U> Message-ID: <00e001c15ab3$2f0c8500$df92bd97@Young> Dear Wei Jian, You can use UDP without RTP/RTCP to deliver MPEG-4 SL packets. Sincerely, Young-Kwon LIM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:08 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP > hi,all: > > there is synchronization/configuration mechanism in MPEG4 AU,Can we skip > RTP/RTCP to make connections between server and client in LAN? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From young techway.co.kr Mon Oct 22 14:38:51 2001 From: young techway.co.kr (Lim, Young-Kwon) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 References: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104B5@CI0027EXCH001U> Message-ID: <00e601c15ab3$732ded00$df92bd97@Young> Dear Wei Jian, mp4 file is an exchange format. It cannot be directly streamed. Sincerely, Young-Kwon LIM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:18 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 > hi,all: > > I have confusions on MPEG2 TS and mp4 file generated by flexmux in MPEG4. > > 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. in figure1-1 in > MPEG4 system standard. > 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From yangwj lucent.com Mon Oct 22 18:25:49 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104BF@CI0027EXCH001U> hi,all: combined with windows media player7, there is a MPEG4 codec named mpg4ds32.ax. Can anyone tell me program interface exposed by this module? Thanks Mac From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Oct 22 11:21:41 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB99A0@exchange.epr.com> > 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. > in figure1-1 in MPEG4 system standard. > 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? Yes you can. MPEG-TS and RTP in fig. 1-1 are just examples. Hence the 'etc.' Generally, MPEG-4 doesn't define the transport. It is up to you. There are some cases in which a normative mapping onto tranports exists (MPEG-2 TS, defined in MPEG-2 standard) or RTP (largely defined in IETF standards and for the MPEG side of the interface in MPEG-4 part 8 to be published early next year). Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2023 7:19 PM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 > > > hi,all: > > I have confusions on MPEG2 TS and mp4 file generated by > flexmux in MPEG4. > > 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. > in figure1-1 in > MPEG4 system standard. > 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Oct 22 11:33:26 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB99A1@exchange.epr.com> ps: I answered this question as ' can you transport MPEG-4 over UDP'. MP4 in the strict sense is the MPEG-4 file format. It can be streamed *from*, or transported as a whole using a file transfer. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 10:22 AM > To: 'Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)'; technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 > > > > 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. > > in figure1-1 in MPEG4 system standard. > > 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? > > Yes you can. > > MPEG-TS and RTP in fig. 1-1 are just examples. Hence the 'etc.' > > Generally, MPEG-4 doesn't define the transport. It is up > to you. There are some cases in which a normative mapping onto > tranports exists (MPEG-2 TS, defined in MPEG-2 standard) or > RTP (largely defined in IETF standards and for the MPEG > side of the interface in MPEG-4 part 8 to be published early > next year). > > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] > > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2023 7:19 PM > > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG2 TS and mp4 > > > > > > hi,all: > > > > I have confusions on MPEG2 TS and mp4 file generated by > > flexmux in MPEG4. > > > > 1. MP4 file should be transmitted by MPEG-2 TS or RTP etc. > > in figure1-1 in > > MPEG4 system standard. > > 2. Can I transmit mp4 file just based on UDP in LAN? > > > > Thanks > > Mac > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Oct 22 11:38:35 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB99A4@exchange.epr.com> Perhaps someone has an answer anyway, but this question is more for Microsoft tech support than for the M4IF technotes list. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 2:26 AM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax > > > hi,all: > > combined with windows media player7, there is a MPEG4 codec named > mpg4ds32.ax. Can anyone tell me program interface exposed by > this module? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Mon Oct 22 11:55:35 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A435@NTGELEXCHANGE> If you have the MSDN Library, specifically for DirectX, which you can download, you will be able to get the information there. If you go to the following site, you could download the DirectX SDK which will give you all the documentation for interfacing with Media Player's DirectX support. http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/nhp/Default.asp?contentid =28000410 You could also get the media player SDK as well, which can be located at the same place, simply go down the left side to Windows Media Technologies and select Windows Media Player. Hope this helps. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: Mon, October 22, 2023 10:39 AM To: 'Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)'; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax Perhaps someone has an answer anyway, but this question is more for Microsoft tech support than for the M4IF technotes list. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 2:26 AM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax > > > hi,all: > > combined with windows media player7, there is a MPEG4 codec named > mpg4ds32.ax. Can anyone tell me program interface exposed by > this module? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011022/e8fbffff/attachment.html From ghughes tardis.com Mon Oct 22 15:18:59 2001 From: ghughes tardis.com (Gary Hughes) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax References: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB99A4@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <007c01c15b26$05d032e0$829ca598@avid.com> From: "Rob Koenen" > Perhaps someone has an answer anyway, but this question is more > for Microsoft tech support than for the M4IF technotes list. > > > From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] > > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 2:26 AM > > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpg4ds32.ax > > > > > > hi,all: > > > > combined with windows media player7, there is a MPEG4 codec named > > mpg4ds32.ax. Can anyone tell me program interface exposed by > > this module? It is a DirectShow filter, which as someone else already pointed out is documented in the DirectX8 SDK, freely downloadable from Microsoft (if you are in MSDN, you already have the SDK). The .ax extension is a hangover from when it was called ActiveMovie under the ActiveX umbrella. DirectShow filters are required to export a number of well known interfaces to allow applications to build a filter graph to process media (e.g. connect a file reader to a demultiplexor to a codec to a video renderer). You can play with this in the GraphEdit utility (also in the SDK). You could also look at the sources for something like VirtualDub (a freeware video processing utility) for a real world example of how to use these filters. gary From yangwj lucent.com Tue Oct 23 12:29:00 2001 From: yangwj lucent.com (Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:04 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 Message-ID: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104C6@CI0027EXCH001U> hi,all: When I design a MPEG4 codec in windows, I encounter a problem: what is the relationship between ActiveMovie SDK and DirectX8 SDK? Thanks Mac From Peter.Haighton m4if.org Tue Oct 23 11:06:48 2001 From: Peter.Haighton m4if.org (Peter Haighton) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:05 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 In-Reply-To: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104C6@CI0027EXCH001U> Message-ID: This is a Microsoft windows question and should be directed towards Microsoft. It is not appropriate for this list. Peter -- Peter Haighton MPEG-4 Industry Forum Tel: (613) 270-9646 x3022 Fax: (613) 271-1896 email: Peter.Haighton@m4if.org See http://www.m4if.org for the latest on MPEG-4 -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:29 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 hi,all: When I design a MPEG4 codec in windows, I encounter a problem: what is the relationship between ActiveMovie SDK and DirectX8 SDK? Thanks Mac _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From ghughes tardis.com Tue Oct 23 12:57:49 2001 From: ghughes tardis.com (Gary Hughes) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:05 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 In-Reply-To: References: <6999EF22C12CD4119A6800508B65021F019104C6@CI0027EXCH001U> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023115027.033da828@mail.tardis.com> At 10:06 AM 10/23/2001 -0400, Peter Haighton wrote: >This is a Microsoft windows question and should be directed towards >Microsoft. It is not appropriate for this list. > >From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org >[mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Yang, Wei Jian (Wei >Jian) >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:29 PM >To: technotes@lists.m4if.org >Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 > > >hi,all: > > When I design a MPEG4 codec in windows, I encounter a problem: what is >the relationship between >ActiveMovie SDK and DirectX8 SDK? The components of ActiveMovie have been folded into DirectX8. Microsoft have changed the names of this stuff several times in the last few years (ActiveMovie, DirectShow, DirectX Media,..) And yes, further discussion of this topic belongs elsewhere. MS maintain a news server with groups for different MS products where you can ask developer questions. Also see MSDN and knowlege base articles. gary Gary Hughes (ghughes@tardis.com) Stargate Video Systems From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 23 10:01:31 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:05 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B03CB99F3@exchange.epr.com> thanks Peter. I've tried to do the same with the last such question ... we should remain friendly in turning people down, if ppossible giving them better places to go. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Haighton [mailto:Peter.Haighton@m4if.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2023 7:07 AM > To: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian); technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 > > > This is a Microsoft windows question and should be directed towards > Microsoft. It is not appropriate for this list. > > Peter > -- > Peter Haighton > MPEG-4 Industry Forum > Tel: (613) 270-9646 x3022 > Fax: (613) 271-1896 > email: Peter.Haighton@m4if.org > > See http://www.m4if.org for the latest on MPEG-4 > > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Yang, Wei > Jian (Wei > Jian) > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:29 PM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 > > > hi,all: > > When I design a MPEG4 codec in windows, I encounter a > problem: what is > the relationship between > ActiveMovie SDK and DirectX8 SDK? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Tue Oct 23 10:01:19 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:05 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A448@NTGELEXCHANGE> Hi, As far as I can tell, DirectX 6.5 and higher did away with the old Windows MCI and ActiveMovie controls. MS would like us to use DirectX by implementing either DirecShow or Media Player. Both Controls have advantages and disadvantages. As posted earlier, yes it would be better to ask MS directly. However, sometimes MS does not give the answers for free. I would suggest use the DirectX8, or beta 9 which is soon to come out and appears to be the direction MS is going for now. You may also want to check the MS Newsgroups at the following link. They contain good information from VC++ and other developers. http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups/ Hope it helps. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian) [mailto:yangwj@lucent.com] Sent: Mon, October 22, 2023 8:29 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ActiveMovie and DirectX8 hi,all: When I design a MPEG4 codec in windows, I encounter a problem: what is the relationship between ActiveMovie SDK and DirectX8 SDK? Thanks Mac _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011023/c122c130/attachment.html From lcheng61 hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 06:35:00 2001 From: lcheng61 hotmail.com (Liang Cheng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:05 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about conformance stream Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011024/27fa0d5a/attachment.html From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Tue Oct 23 16:47:54 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:06 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A456@NTGELEXCHANGE> Ladies, Gentlemen, We are currently working along with SMPTE, Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineers, on the D-Cinema Subtitle Specs where MPEG-4 is being considered for the video format. Our concerns listed below are crucial, however now I have a couple more specific questions that I hope some of you may know the answer to. 1) Is the timing model of MPEG-4 specific to the normal timing model of other video formats? For example, if in an AVI we have 30 FPS we expect the timing model to be 30 frames per second and so on. I can accurately synchronize on frame 10 of the 25th second of the 23rd minute of the movie. 2) If I have an Mpeg-4 video file and a separate PNG or TIFF format graphic file with yet another separate text navigation file that gives me time cues down to the frame, i.e., '00:23:25.10', will I be able to synchronize the pictures to the video with frame accuracy? This is crucial for the display of subtitles at the right time. 3) If the MPEG-4 time model is not accurate to the frame, is there any alternative to synchronize to the frame, or will I have to synchronize to the nearest second? Lastly, the jerky playback of MPEG-4 files is for example, I want to play a movie at 1/4 the speed with the sound mimicking the sound of a tape at 1/4 the speed, where the sound actually sounds a couple of octaves lower, but it is understandable. This method is commonly known as "scrubbing audio", which works good on forward playback of the MPEG4 movie. But during the process of reversing playback, we have problems of "jerkiness", where the frames need to be "de-coded" or "re-render" to actually just display the previous frame. For example, I stop at frame 10, and want to go back to frame 9, if frame 9 is not a reference frame, the video playback visibly has to go back to the key reference frame and "re-render" all the other frames in between the key reference frame and frame 9. This is my main concern for synchronization. On a test we've performed, we've noticed that on the long run, subtitles that we attempted to synchronize 23 minutes into the movie, seem to be off by a second or so. Thanks you all for your feedback, and I apologize for the length of the e-mail. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:40 AM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Again, I thank you all for your comments. Hence, if someone on the list can answer my below questions. Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:34 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 I second Michelle's proposal to send to the list. However, oit looks to me as if your issue is with the implementation you are using, not with the standard. Jerky playback is not something that is built into MPEG-4. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2023 9:25 AM To: 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? I thank you all for your comments. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Michelle Y Kim [] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:21 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, Since I don't know what kind of problems you're trying to solve, I can only offer you the following very general response, and will have to echo Rob and ask you to bring this to the reflector. If you want to achieve frame-level synchronization of subtitles and video, and if the video delivery is reliable, then you can achieve synchronization without FlexTime. You can simply align video timestamps to those of BIFS that contain subtitles. Note that presently MPEG-4 does not support text streams. Text in MPEG-4 is delivered in BIFS as timed insertions and deletions, where the timestamps can be as accurate as you wish. The level of synchornization you can from MPEG-4 is at a finer granularity than SMIL if you're coming from the SMIL experience. But if the video delivery is non-deterministic, then FlexTime is a technic you can use, which I can help you with, as I understand the nature of your question better. Regards, Michelle Michelle Y. Kim, Ph. D. Manager, Composite Media Technologies IBM T. J. Watson Research Center 30 Saw Mill River Road, Hawthorne NY, 10532 mykim@us.ibm.com phone: 914-784-7709, fax: 914-784-7455 (tie: 863-7709) Rob Koenen on 10/18/2001 12:43:01 PM To: "'Mariano Padilla'" , Rob Koenen cc: Scott Rose , Michelle Y Kim/Watson/IBM@IBMUS Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Again I suggest that you ask these questions on the list. But I copy Michelle Kim of IBM - there is no better expert on flextime to be found. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 9:38 AM To: 'Rob Koenen' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Rob, Thank you. I will subscribe. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the overview, written by you, in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of your overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow milisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Thanks again, Mariano -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [] Sent: Wed, October 17, 2023 5:17 PM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; Rob Koenen Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, you can ask me but I am not the best source for technical details. I could forward your questions to experts. I would suggest, however, that you subscribe yourself to the technotes mailing list of the MPEG-4 Industry Forum (this is a public list) and ask your question there. Then I will monitor that you indeed do get an answer. See and in particular Hope this helps, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 5:11 PM To: 'rob@intertrust.com' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: MPEG 4 Rob, I got your e-mail address form the MPEG-4 standards article and I have a couple of questions, specifically regarding section 8.3 'FlexTime' and synchronization of subtitles. Can I address these questions to you, or if you have someone else that can answer them for me? Please advise. We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. I thank you in advanced for the time spent. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011023/f5c824fe/attachment.html From garysull microsoft.com Tue Oct 23 18:16:39 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:06 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF40B@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Tue Oct 23 18:54:29 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:07 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A45F@NTGELEXCHANGE> Gary, Thank you so much for your reply. The 29.97 FPS, or commonly know as "Drop Frame" can be compensated. We currently have some calculations we perform to compensate for the drop frame calculation. What I would like, if possible for you to elaborate on your comment: "I believe the time_code values in MPEG-4 are meant to be taken literally as precise multiples of exact seconds, whereas the values in 60461 are not. This aspect should probably be clarified, and may cause difficulties when synchronizing with devices that use conventional time code if not interpreted correctly. " Even though we can compensate for the "drop frame" phenomenon on Mpeg-1, AVI, Mpeg-2 and Mpeg-4, it seems to me that MPEG-4 time_code values are meant to be taken as precise as multiples of exact seconds, therefore leaving the frames to be randomly updated by the decoder to "compensate" to match the SS parameter structure of the MPEG-4 time_code. Therefore, we cannot synchronize anything precisely to the frame within a second of the MPEG-4 VOP since it only support HH:MM:SS time_code structure. Can you confirm this, or elaborate if I am at error? Thank you again. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:garysull@microsoft.com] Sent: Tue, October 23, 2023 5:17 PM To: Mariano Padilla; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions To Mariano Padilla et al, Using the fixed_vop_rate flag and the fixed_vop_time_increment parameter, it is possible in MPEG-4 video to specify a constant and fixed frame rate (as, for example, is typical in MPEG-2 use). It is also possible for the frame rate to not be constant, and in fact it is possible for the timing between frames to vary in a highly flexible fashion from frame to frame in MPEG-4. The encoder governs whether to send frames at fixed intervals or not. I frankly don't understand the jerkiness comment. Unless the encoder wants the frame rate to vary, there is nothing inherently different in handling MPEG-4 video than in handling MPEG-2 or MPEG-1 video. Displaying the reference frames in the manner you described and repeating frame decodings sounds simply like a poor system design. The proper thing to do is to store the necessary anchor frames in the decoder and not repeat their decoding during reverse playback. Even if the decoding of them is repeated, their display need not be repeated. This is really the same whether using MPEG-4 or MPEG-2 or MPEG-1. The Group_of_VideoObjectPlane structure in MPEG-4 includes a HH:MM:SS time_code structure (although I don't think the encoder is required to send this structure if it doesn't want to). The time of each individual VOP is governed by the use of that time_code in conjunction with the vop_time_increment_resolution, modulo_time_base, and vop_time_increment parameters (along with the previously-mentioned fixed_vop_rate flag and fixed_vop_time_increment parameter). You should be aware that conventional HH:MM:SS:FF timecode drifts relative to true time in regard to the values of its HH:MM:SS parameters whenever the frame rate is not an integer number of frames per second (which it is not in 29.97 Hz video). This may be the cause of your difficulties in synchronizing. MPEG-4 mentions IEC 60461 in describing the time_code parameters. However, I think perhaps this was not written properly. I believe each increment of the SS parameter in the 60461 timecode does not necessarily represent a time lapse of exactly one second. For example, in 29.97 Hz video, each increment of the seconds parameter in 60461 normally represents a time interval of 30*1001/30000 seconds, which is 30030/30000 seconds, not exactly one second. And I believe the 60461 timecode is not as general as the MPEG-4 visual timing design. I believe the time_code values in MPEG-4 are meant to be taken literally as precise multiples of exact seconds, whereas the values in 60461 are not. This aspect should probably be clarified, and may cause difficulties when synchronizing with devices that use conventional timecode if not interpreted correctly. The drift between conventional timecode and true time can exceed 86 seconds per 24 hour period. Best Regards, Gary Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2023 3:48 PM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Ladies, Gentlemen, We are currently working along with SMPTE, Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineers, on the D-Cinema Subtitle Specs where MPEG-4 is being considered for the video format. Our concerns listed below are crucial, however now I have a couple more specific questions that I hope some of you may know the answer to. 1) Is the timing model of MPEG-4 specific to the normal timing model of other video formats? For example, if in an AVI we have 30 FPS we expect the timing model to be 30 frames per second and so on. I can accurately synchronize on frame 10 of the 25th second of the 23rd minute of the movie. 2) If I have an Mpeg-4 video file and a separate PNG or TIFF format graphic file with yet another separate text navigation file that gives me time cues down to the frame, i.e., '00:23:25.10', will I be able to synchronize the pictures to the video with frame accuracy? This is crucial for the display of subtitles at the right time. 3) If the MPEG-4 time model is not accurate to the frame, is there any alternative to synchronize to the frame, or will I have to synchronize to the nearest second? Lastly, the jerky playback of MPEG-4 files is for example, I want to play a movie at 1/4 the speed with the sound mimicking the sound of a tape at 1/4 the speed, where the sound actually sounds a couple of octaves lower, but it is understandable. This method is commonly known as "scrubbing audio", which works good on forward playback of the MPEG4 movie. But during the process of reversing playback, we have problems of "jerkiness", where the frames need to be "de-coded" or "re-render" to actually just display the previous frame. For example, I stop at frame 10, and want to go back to frame 9, if frame 9 is not a reference frame, the video playback visibly has to go back to the key reference frame and "re-render" all the other frames in between the key reference frame and frame 9. This is my main concern for synchronization. On a test we've performed, we've noticed that on the long run, subtitles that we attempted to synchronize 23 minutes into the movie, seem to be off by a second or so. Thanks you all for your feedback, and I apologize for the length of the e-mail. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:40 AM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Again, I thank you all for your comments. Hence, if someone on the list can answer my below questions. Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [ mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com ] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:34 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 I second Michelle's proposal to send to the list. However, oit looks to me as if your issue is with the implementation you are using, not with the standard. Jerky playback is not something that is built into MPEG-4. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [ mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com ] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2023 9:25 AM To: 'Michelle Y Kim' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Thank you much. If you do have the time to elaborate on the strict Timestamps. Our concern is that when we provide for an MPEG-4 video time specific "Subtitle Stream" which is controlled by a navigation file containing time stamps for cue in and cue out, the temporal difference from an "outside" graphic, in this case the subtitle superimposed on the Mpeg-4 video, can it create the same effect as the DVD MPEG-2 standard? With DVD there is a variance of approximately 4 to 10 frames or more in some instances. In NTSC, being 30 fps, it's a bit difficult to notice, but on PAL at 25 fps it is a bit more noticeable. We've been experimenting also with MPEG-4, and since it is not as accurate as MPEG-1 I-Frame, we notice that a) when going back it does not stop on the exact frame, usually re-renders the frames and you can visually see the re-rendering of frames. b) slow playback, with sound, is extremely jerky and looses track where it is, hence it needs to re-render the frames. Are these behaviors part of the internal time correction as well as just the "de-compression" of the frames? Would these behaviors affect time cueing of non-internal MPEG-4 objects? For example, I have a graphic that is to be superimposed on a video at exactly 00:23:20.10, would the 10th frame be a reference frame or would it have to "de-compress" and generate from reference frames and how would this affect the external temporal synch? Your e-mail below says the MPEG-4 timestamps can be as accurate as I wish, in this case I would need it to be down to the frame, is this possible? Would I need to create the subtitle stream of external tiffs as MPEG-4 BIFS in order to achieve the frame accurate sync? I thank you all for your comments. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: Michelle Y Kim [< mailto:mykim@us.ibm.com >] Sent: Fri, October 19, 2023 9:21 AM To: 'Mariano Padilla' Cc: Rob Koenen; Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, Since I don't know what kind of problems you're trying to solve, I can only offer you the following very general response, and will have to echo Rob and ask you to bring this to the reflector. If you want to achieve frame-level synchronization of subtitles and video, and if the video delivery is reliable, then you can achieve synchronization without FlexTime. You can simply align video timestamps to those of BIFS that contain subtitles. Note that presently MPEG-4 does not support text streams. Text in MPEG-4 is delivered in BIFS as timed insertions and deletions, where the timestamps can be as accurate as you wish. The level of synchornization you can from MPEG-4 is at a finer granularity than SMIL if you're coming from the SMIL experience. But if the video delivery is non-deterministic, then FlexTime is a technic you can use, which I can help you with, as I understand the nature of your question better. Regards, Michelle Michelle Y. Kim, Ph. D. Manager, Composite Media Technologies IBM T. J. Watson Research Center 30 Saw Mill River Road, Hawthorne NY, 10532 mykim@us.ibm.com phone: 914-784-7709, fax: 914-784-7455 (tie: 863-7709) Rob Koenen on 10/18/2001 12:43:01 PM To: "'Mariano Padilla'" , Rob Koenen cc: Scott Rose , Michelle Y Kim/Watson/IBM@IBMUS Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Again I suggest that you ask these questions on the list. But I copy Michelle Kim of IBM - there is no better expert on flextime to be found. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [< mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com >] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2023 9:38 AM To: 'Rob Koenen' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Rob, Thank you. I will subscribe. Specifically we are wondering the synchronization of subtitles on MPEG 4 stream. In the overview, written by you, in section 8.3.2, 'The FlexTime model allows the content author to express synchronization among MPEG-4 objects with streams or stream segments, by assigning temporal relationships among them.' then the following questions: 1) Are subtitle streams to be synchronized considered MPEG objects? 2) If the subtitle streams to be synchronized are MPEG objects, do they have to behave according to the SMIL text guidelines in section 4.2.2 of your overview? 3) If 2 above is true, then does SMIL used in MPEG4 allow milisecond or frame-accurate synchronization with the video? 4) If there is no text/SMIL synchronization of multinational subtitles, how can synchronization of external images be achieved? Is it similar to the MPEG2/DVD model? Thanks again, Mariano -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [< mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com >] Sent: Wed, October 17, 2023 5:17 PM To: 'Mariano Padilla'; Rob Koenen Cc: Scott Rose Subject: RE: MPEG 4 Mariano, you can ask me but I am not the best source for technical details. I could forward your questions to experts. I would suggest, however, that you subscribe yourself to the technotes mailing list of the MPEG-4 Industry Forum (this is a public list) and ask your question there. Then I will monitor that you indeed do get an answer. See < http://www.m4if.org > and in particular < http://www.m4if.org/public/publiclistreg.html > Hope this helps, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Mariano Padilla [< mailto:mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com >] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2023 5:11 PM To: 'rob@intertrust.com' Cc: Scott Rose Subject: MPEG 4 Rob, I got your e-mail address form the MPEG-4 standards article and I have a couple of questions, specifically regarding section 8.3 'FlexTime' and synchronization of subtitles. Can I address these questions to you, or if you have someone else that can answer them for me? Please advise. We at SDI Media USA specialize in Theatrical, DVD, Home Video and broadcast subtitles and captions for over 40 languages. Naturally we are looking at how subtitles are synchronized in MPEG-4. I thank you in advanced for the time spent. Mariano J. Padilla Director of IT/R&D SDI Media USA T 323-602-5406 F 323-602-5450 www.sdi-media-usa.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011023/c2382a1c/attachment.html From garysull microsoft.com Tue Oct 23 20:09:32 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:07 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF411@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From sgkim logostek.com Wed Oct 24 13:06:03 2001 From: sgkim logostek.com (Kim, Sunggu) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Stuffing codewords Message-ID: Dear MPEG-4 experts, In the MPEG-4 standard, I wonder why the stuffing codeword, 01111111(8bit), is necessary. Thank you in advance. Sungu Kim ------------------------------------------- Sunggu Kim Logostek, Inc. Seoul, South Korea TEL: +82-2-3663-5855 ------------------------------------------- From garysull microsoft.com Tue Oct 23 21:11:37 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Stuffing codewords Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040C1E32@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> To Sunggu Kim et al, An MPEG-4 video decoder can figure out where precisely is the last bit of non-stuffing data prior to a start code by discarding the last zero in the stream and any following 1's. If there were no 8-bit stuffing codeword, there might be some cases in which the decoder could not easily identify whether the last bits of the stream were stuffing or were actual coded content. I think it's kind of a neat trick, although it does add a little bit of overhead (an average of one bit per start code). -Gary Sullivan +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Kim, Sunggu [mailto:sgkim@logostek.com] +> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2023 8:06 PM +> To: Mpeg4TechGroup +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Stuffing codewords +> +> +> Dear MPEG-4 experts, +> +> In the MPEG-4 standard, I wonder why the stuffing codeword, +> 01111111(8bit), is necessary. +> +> Thank you in advance. +> +> Sungu Kim +> +> ------------------------------------------- +> Sunggu Kim +> Logostek, Inc. +> Seoul, South Korea +> TEL: +82-2-3663-5855 +> ------------------------------------------- +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From ramizer wmr.com Wed Oct 24 10:06:38 2001 From: ramizer wmr.com (richard mizer) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions References: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF411@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3BD6E70A.FB3DC3CA@wmr.com> Digital Cinema, which is what started this thread, will be 23.976 fps non-drop time code in its initial implementation, and eventually will add 47.95, 25 and 50 (since Europe doesn't seem to have the same electrical interferance problems) that will also be non-drop. Higher frame rates will also be considered. There is even some potential for variable frame rate, much like the new Panasonic camera supports. Also regarding 12M SMPTE timecode...the SMPTE S22 committee is working on a new standard that will replace 12M at some point in the future commonly called Universal Time Code, based on time since a start point defined in the 1950s. This will allow the creation time of any piece of content to be compared. Hopefully MPEG4 Studio Profile is tracking with these plans. > An important note: In Studio profile, the time representation > corresponds directly to SMPTE 12M. All of my other remarks > only apply to other profiles. In fact I believe you're talking about > Studio profile, so none of my other remarks apply in that context. > And I think you should be happy with the time representation > in the Studio profile, since it is just conventional SMPTE 12M > and that seems to be what you want. I guess the Studio Profile > designers knew what the studio environment users liked. > > There are at least two flavors of conventional 29.97 fps timecode in > common use: Drop and Non-Drop. My understanding is that both > are commonly used (some people prefer one and some prefer the > other). > > Drop frame timing has about 0.86 seconds of drift per day > and non-drop has about 86 seconds of drift per day. Neither is > exactly drift free. And neither carries any assurance that the > amount of time between HH:MM:SS:FF and HH:MM:SS+N:FF > is exactly N seconds. In fact, in both counting methods the > precise time intervals are difficult to calculate and in drop frame > timing the computation of the precise duration of time intervals > becomes more difficult because the counting process is more irregular. > Gary Sullivan wrote: > Part 1.1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable From mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com Wed Oct 24 11:12:27 2001 From: mpadilla sdi-media-usa.com (Mariano Padilla) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Message-ID: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A46A@NTGELEXCHANGE> Richard, Thank you for your comments, however, they do introduce one more concern in our quest. As you stated, SMPTE is potentially considering a "variable frame rate" this would throw off completely the synchronization of our subtitles to the video. For example, if a subtitle is to appear at 00:23:25.10, and the variable frame rate is different, say the actual subtitle should appear at frame 20 because the variable frame difference has changed the count of the frame to when the actual actor speaks in the movie, it would appear to the audience that the subtitle is shown too early. On the other hand if the actual support for MPEG-4 in 23.976 is to the frame, we can then compensate for a prolonged loss of synch on 10+ minutes or so. As far as the Europeans, well then we would just have to work similarly to NTSC vs. PAL and do offsets accordingly. Lastly, just to confirm, if SMPTE agrees to use 23.976, I can synchronize external pictures or text with the MPEG-4 movie, down to the frame? Again, thank you all for your comments. Mariano J. Padilla SDI Media USA Director of IT/R&D Tel: 323-602-5406 Fax: 323-602-5450 mpadilla@sdi-media-usa.com www.sdi-media-usa.com -----Original Message----- From: richard mizer [mailto:ramizer@wmr.com] Sent: Wed, October 24, 2023 9:07 AM To: Gary Sullivan Cc: Mariano Padilla; technotes@lists.m4if.org; Scott Rose Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions Digital Cinema, which is what started this thread, will be 23.976 fps non-drop time code in its initial implementation, and eventually will add 47.95, 25 and 50 (since Europe doesn't seem to have the same electrical interferance problems) that will also be non-drop. Higher frame rates will also be considered. There is even some potential for variable frame rate, much like the new Panasonic camera supports. Also regarding 12M SMPTE timecode...the SMPTE S22 committee is working on a new standard that will replace 12M at some point in the future commonly called Universal Time Code, based on time since a start point defined in the 1950s. This will allow the creation time of any piece of content to be compared. Hopefully MPEG4 Studio Profile is tracking with these plans. > An important note: In Studio profile, the time representation > corresponds directly to SMPTE 12M. All of my other remarks > only apply to other profiles. In fact I believe you're talking about > Studio profile, so none of my other remarks apply in that context. > And I think you should be happy with the time representation > in the Studio profile, since it is just conventional SMPTE 12M > and that seems to be what you want. I guess the Studio Profile > designers knew what the studio environment users liked. > > There are at least two flavors of conventional 29.97 fps timecode in > common use: Drop and Non-Drop. My understanding is that both > are commonly used (some people prefer one and some prefer the > other). > > Drop frame timing has about 0.86 seconds of drift per day > and non-drop has about 86 seconds of drift per day. Neither is > exactly drift free. And neither carries any assurance that the > amount of time between HH:MM:SS:FF and HH:MM:SS+N:FF > is exactly N seconds. In fact, in both counting methods the > precise time intervals are difficult to calculate and in drop frame > timing the computation of the precise duration of time intervals > becomes more difficult because the counting process is more irregular. > Gary Sullivan wrote: > Part 1.1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011024/c71643b2/attachment.html From mike isc.tv Wed Oct 24 14:36:25 2001 From: mike isc.tv (Morris, Mike) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] specifications Message-ID: <40FA7B20C5DE854D98C80CE059850879118F89@EXCH-VS-AB1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> Dear group, I have recieved the MPEG-4 specification (1999), and am ordering the updates (2000). My question is where can I find the actual specification for the MPEG-4 file format, such as the reference number. Thank you for you time. Best regards, Mike Morris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011024/dbb86a67/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Wed Oct 24 13:42:50 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] specifications Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD98F3@exchange.epr.com> Mike, go here: http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/StandardsQueryFormHandler.StandardsQueryFormHandler ?languageCode=en &keyword=&lastSearch=false&isoNumber=14496&isoPartNumber=&ICS=&stageCode=&st ageDate=&committee=ALL&subcommittee=&scope=CATALOGUE&sortOrder=ISO and get the first item in the list - this is the 2001 edition of MPEG-4 Systems; it includes the MP4 file format: " ISO/IEC 14496-1:2001 Information technology -- Coding of audio-visual objects -- Part 1: Systems" is the official name of the standard you want. I assume this is what you mean by reference number. http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=34903 &ICS1=35&ICS2=40&ICS3= takes you straight to the item itself. You can always find these link from here our resources page: http://www.m4if.org/resources.html Best, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Morris, Mike [mailto:mike@isc.tv] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2023 12:36 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] specifications Dear group, I have recieved the MPEG-4 specification (1999), and am ordering the updates (2000). My question is where can I find the actual specification for the MPEG-4 file format, such as the reference number. Thank you for you time. Best regards, Mike Morris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011024/cd11984c/attachment.html From kmr iis.fhg.de Thu Oct 25 14:51:57 2001 From: kmr iis.fhg.de (Vinod Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel interpolation in the quartersample mode Message-ID: <3BD7FCDD.B4A24E1@iis.fhg.de> Hello i have a confusion regarding halfpel interpolation in the quartersample mode. The standard says "a reference block of size (M+1)x(N+1) biased in the direction of the half or quarter sample position is read from the reconstructed and padded reference VOP." what does biased hear mean? Do I have to calculate the half pel values 8 times for the eight adjacent positions around the Integerpel mv? If anybody have any web reference regarding the principle of quarterpel interpolation please do let me know. -- Vinod From ramizer wmr.com Thu Oct 25 14:53:31 2001 From: ramizer wmr.com (richard mizer) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Timing Questions References: <4B50A7328364D411A9FA00D0B7458B8E0234A46A@NTGELEXCHANGE> Message-ID: <3BD87BC8.296FD372@wmr.com> Variable Frame Rate Digital Cinema playout is not currently in development, but was a topic discussed over the course of the Study Group meetings...alsohigher frame rates were discussed, say 72 fps... but all of this is far into the future Mariano Padilla wrote: > Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain) From garysull microsoft.com Thu Oct 25 16:04:50 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel interpolation in the quartersample mode Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF417@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Vinod, 1) The remark about biasing means that if the fractional part of the motion vector is positive, you need to grab one more column of samples to the right or one more row below the samples of the block at the location pointed to by the motion vector. If that fractional part is negative, you need a column to the left or a row above. If you need to interpolate to predict a 16x16 area, you will need 17x17 samples in the reference picture. The same is true for half-pel motion. 2) As reported a few days ago on this reflector, there is a problem with the specification of MPEG-4's quarter pel motion. It's too early to predict how that will be resolved, but most people seem in favor of the method in the reference software. 3) Your remark about trying to calculate eight quarter pel positions around an integer pel vector gives me the impression that you're talking about how do a search in the encoder. The spec only covers how the decoder operates, and the decoder doesn't need to do anything that fits that description. Again I would point to the reference software if you want an illustration of how to design an encoder. Best Regards, Gary Sullivan +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Vinod Kumar [mailto:kmr@iis.fhg.de] +> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2023 4:52 AM +> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel +> interpolation in the quartersample mode +> +> +> Hello +> i have a confusion regarding halfpel interpolation in +> the quartersample +> mode. The standard says "a reference block of size +> (M+1)x(N+1) biased in +> the direction of the half or quarter sample position is read from the +> reconstructed and padded reference VOP." what does biased +> hear mean? Do +> I have to calculate the half pel values 8 times for the +> eight adjacent +> positions around the Integerpel mv? If anybody have any web reference +> regarding the principle of quarterpel interpolation please do let me +> know. +> -- +> Vinod +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr Fri Oct 26 10:52:59 2001 From: jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr (Jean-Claude Dufourd) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about conformance stream References: Message-ID: <3BD9165B.CEE070BD@enst.fr> Liang Cheng wrote: > Should the 14496-4 include the necessary testing streams besides the > description of the conformance test(pdf file)? Thanks. Yes it should. At least the final version should. If you are talking about the versions being balloted then it is normal that you get only the PDF. The bitstreams are only prepared for the final version, ie the IS or the AMD or the integrated versions. Before, you have to be an MPEG member and subscribe to the working reflectors to know where the streams are. Best regards JC -- Jean-Claude Dufourd @======================================@ ENST, Dept COMELEC The wing, over the big rock... 46, rue Barrault @======================================@ 75013 Paris Tel: +33145817807 Fax: +33145804036 From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Oct 26 01:51:44 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Re: [M4IF Technotes] about conformance stream Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD998F@exchange.epr.com> In other words: the conformance part of the standard, when ordered from ISO, will come with bitstreams. (ISO only sells final standards, not interim versions) Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Claude Dufourd [mailto:jean-claude.dufourd@enst.fr] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 12:53 AM > To: Liang Cheng > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org; infolist@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Infolist] Re: [M4IF Technotes] about conformance stream > > > Liang Cheng wrote: > > Should the 14496-4 include the necessary testing streams besides the > > description of the conformance test(pdf file)? Thanks. > > Yes it should. At least the final version should. If you are talking > about the versions being balloted then it is normal that you get only > the PDF. The bitstreams are only prepared for the final > version, ie the > IS or the AMD or the integrated versions. Before, you have to > be an MPEG > member and subscribe to the working reflectors to know where > the streams > are. > > Best regards > JC > -- > Jean-Claude Dufourd @======================================@ > ENST, Dept COMELEC The wing, over the big rock... > 46, rue Barrault @======================================@ > 75013 Paris Tel: +33145817807 Fax: +33145804036 > _______________________________________________ > M4IF General Information list > Infolist@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/infolist > From kmr iis.fhg.de Fri Oct 26 14:07:06 2001 From: kmr iis.fhg.de (Vinod Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel interpolation in the quartersample mode References: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF417@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3BD943DA.9C3F8A3D@iis.fhg.de> Hello Gary Thankyou for clearing some doubts of mine. There is one more clarification regarding 1. that you have replied. Since according to the standard(as I can understand) for every interger pel the calculation of half pel is done by filtering horizontally and vertically and the resultant halfpel values that i get is positioned like the way shown below I H H H where H is the halfpel value and I is the integer pel in focus isnt it almost every time enough if I grab 1 more column to the left and one more row above without bothering about whether the Integerpel motionvector is + or - Am I missing something over here? please enlighten me. regards vinod Gary Sullivan wrote: > > Vinod, > > 1) The remark about biasing means that if the > fractional part of the motion vector is positive, > you need to grab one more column of samples to > the right or one more row below the samples of > the block at the location pointed to by the motion vector. > If that fractional part is negative, you need > a column to the left or a row above. > If you need to interpolate to predict a 16x16 > area, you will need 17x17 samples in the reference > picture. The same is true for half-pel motion. > > 2) As reported a few days ago on this reflector, there > is a problem with the specification of MPEG-4's > quarter pel motion. It's too early to predict > how that will be resolved, but most people seem > in favor of the method in the reference software. > > 3) Your remark about trying to calculate eight > quarter pel positions around an integer pel vector > gives me the impression that you're talking about > how do a search in the encoder. The spec only > covers how the decoder operates, and the decoder > doesn't need to do anything that fits that description. > Again I would point to the reference software if > you want an illustration of how to design an encoder. > > Best Regards, > > Gary Sullivan > > +> -----Original Message----- > +> From: Vinod Kumar [mailto:kmr@iis.fhg.de] > +> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2023 4:52 AM > +> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel > +> interpolation in the quartersample mode > +> > +> > +> Hello > +> i have a confusion regarding halfpel interpolation in > +> the quartersample > +> mode. The standard says "a reference block of size > +> (M+1)x(N+1) biased in > +> the direction of the half or quarter sample position is read from the > +> reconstructed and padded reference VOP." what does biased > +> hear mean? Do > +> I have to calculate the half pel values 8 times for the > +> eight adjacent > +> positions around the Integerpel mv? If anybody have any web reference > +> regarding the principle of quarterpel interpolation please do let me > +> know. > +> -- > +> Vinod > +> _______________________________________________ > +> Technotes mailing list > +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org > +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > +> From garysull microsoft.com Fri Oct 26 12:08:43 2001 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel interpolation in the quartersample mode Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF41D@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Vinod, I think some concrete examples are in order. Here are four. Consider macroblock (i,j) having its upper left corner at (x,y) position (i*16, j*16) in the current picture. Example 1: (MVx, MVy) = (5.25, 0.25) The integer part of the MV is (5, 0) The components of the MV are positive, so the area needed is biased to the right and below the area needed for the integer MV. Thus the area needed in the reference picture is the 16x16 area having its upper left corner at position (i*16+5, j*16), plus one extra column to the right and one extra row below that area. Thus the area needed in the reference picture is the 17x17 area having its upper left corner at position (i*16+5, j*16). Example 2: (MVx, MVy) = (-5.25, -0.25) The integer part of the MV is (-5, 0) The components of the MV are negative, so the area needed is biased to the left and above the area needed for the integer MV. Thus the area needed in the reference picture is the 16x16 area having its upper left corner at position (i+16-5, j*16), plus one extra column to the left and one extra row above that area. Thus the area needed in the reference picture is the 17x17 area having its upper left corner at position (i*16-6, j*16-1). Example 3: (MVx, MVy) = (5.25, -0.25) The area needed in the reference picture is the 17x17 area having its upper left corner at position (i*16+5, j*16-1). Example 4: (MVx, MVy) = (-5.25, 0.25) The area needed in the reference picture is the 17x17 area having its upper left corner at position (i*16-6, j*16). The same is true whether quarter pel or half pel motion is in use. Perhaps this could have been explained better by saying to get an integer motion vector by rounding the position toward negative infinity and then grabbing a 17x17 area starting from there. -Gary S. +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Vinod Kumar [mailto:kmr@iis.fhg.de] +> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 4:07 AM +> To: Gary Sullivan; technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel +> interpolation in the quartersample mode +> +> +> Hello Gary +> Thankyou for clearing some doubts of mine. There is one more +> clarification regarding 1. that you have replied. Since +> according to the +> standard(as I can understand) for every interger pel the +> calculation of +> half pel is done by filtering horizontally and vertically and the +> resultant halfpel values that i get is positioned like the way shown +> below +> +> I H +> H H +> +> where H is the halfpel value and I is the integer pel in focus +> +> isnt it almost every time enough if I grab 1 more column to +> the left and +> one more row above without bothering about whether the Integerpel +> motionvector is + or - +> +> Am I missing something over here? please enlighten me. +> regards +> vinod +> Gary Sullivan wrote: +> > +> > Vinod, +> > +> > 1) The remark about biasing means that if the +> > fractional part of the motion vector is positive, +> > you need to grab one more column of samples to +> > the right or one more row below the samples of +> > the block at the location pointed to by the motion vector. +> > If that fractional part is negative, you need +> > a column to the left or a row above. +> > If you need to interpolate to predict a 16x16 +> > area, you will need 17x17 samples in the reference +> > picture. The same is true for half-pel motion. +> > +> > 2) As reported a few days ago on this reflector, there +> > is a problem with the specification of MPEG-4's +> > quarter pel motion. It's too early to predict +> > how that will be resolved, but most people seem +> > in favor of the method in the reference software. +> > +> > 3) Your remark about trying to calculate eight +> > quarter pel positions around an integer pel vector +> > gives me the impression that you're talking about +> > how do a search in the encoder. The spec only +> > covers how the decoder operates, and the decoder +> > doesn't need to do anything that fits that description. +> > Again I would point to the reference software if +> > you want an illustration of how to design an encoder. +> > +> > Best Regards, +> > +> +> > Gary Sullivan +> > +> > +> -----Original Message----- +> > +> From: Vinod Kumar [mailto:kmr@iis.fhg.de] +> > +> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2023 4:52 AM +> > +> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org +> > +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] information regarding halfpel +> > +> interpolation in the quartersample mode +> > +> +> > +> +> > +> Hello +> > +> i have a confusion regarding halfpel interpolation in +> > +> the quartersample +> > +> mode. The standard says "a reference block of size +> > +> (M+1)x(N+1) biased in +> > +> the direction of the half or quarter sample position is +> read from the +> > +> reconstructed and padded reference VOP." what does biased +> > +> hear mean? Do +> > +> I have to calculate the half pel values 8 times for the +> > +> eight adjacent +> > +> positions around the Integerpel mv? If anybody have any +> web reference +> > +> regarding the principle of quarterpel interpolation +> please do let me +> > +> know. +> > +> -- +> > +> Vinod +> > +> _______________________________________________ +> > +> Technotes mailing list +> > +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> > +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> > +> +> From olivier e-schaer.net Fri Oct 26 12:47:12 2001 From: olivier e-schaer.net (Olivier Schaer) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] SP L3 bandwidth and VOP ordering questions Message-ID: <200110261846.f9QIkDT23930@www.host2.wfdns.com> Sorry for the basic question but I try to clarify my mind.. the bandwidth limitation for Simple Profile L3 is set to 384 kbits/s; my question is : what happens if we decide to go over this limit and ask our encoder for a video stream exceeding this limit and we still claim to be SP L3? I guess we enter a "no man's land" and of course are not MPEG-4 compliant anymore... only our own decoder is going to be able to decode this stream. What happens to the other (compliant) decoders? I have been told we are not MPEG-4 compliant if we (the encoder) stream I-VOP only. Is that true? I read in the spec. the VOP reodering is very flexible, and am not able to get hold on the section describing this requirment. Thanks in advance Olivier From Peter.Haighton m4if.org Fri Oct 26 16:04:45 2001 From: Peter.Haighton m4if.org (Peter Haighton) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] SP L3 bandwidth and VOP ordering questions In-Reply-To: <200110261846.f9QIkDT23930@www.host2.wfdns.com> Message-ID: Hello Olivier, If the encoder goes over the limit, then you are correct, you are no longer compliant to MPEG-4. There is no telling what will happen to other decoders since that is an implementation issue. Some decoders may be able to handle, it others might decide to drop the stream. It is undetermined. If an encoder only produces I frames, then yes you are compliant if you stay with in the constraints put forth in the specification (ie bandwidth, buffers etc). There is nothing in the specification that says you must use each and every tool in the encoder. However, a decoder must be able to decode every tool needed for a specific profile. Of course, if an encoder only uses I frames, then there will not be many encoded frames per second in the simple profile. Peter -- Peter Haighton VideoSpheres Inc. 84 Hines Road Kanata, Ontario Canada, K2K 3G3 Tel: (613) 270-9646 x3022 Fax: (613) 271-9442 email: peterh@VideoSpheres.com See http://www.m4if.org for the latest on MPEG-4 -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Olivier Schaer Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 2:47 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] SP L3 bandwidth and VOP ordering questions Sorry for the basic question but I try to clarify my mind.. the bandwidth limitation for Simple Profile L3 is set to 384 kbits/s; my question is : what happens if we decide to go over this limit and ask our encoder for a video stream exceeding this limit and we still claim to be SP L3? I guess we enter a "no man's land" and of course are not MPEG-4 compliant anymore... only our own decoder is going to be able to decode this stream. What happens to the other (compliant) decoders? I have been told we are not MPEG-4 compliant if we (the encoder) stream I-VOP only. Is that true? I read in the spec. the VOP reodering is very flexible, and am not able to get hold on the section describing this requirment. Thanks in advance Olivier _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From LMing tvia.com Fri Oct 26 13:05:14 2001 From: LMing tvia.com (Lei Ming) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Message-ID: Hi, Is quarter pel estimation used in any Profile/Level? Thanks, Lei ---------------------------------- Lei Ming Tvia Inc. (408)982-8588 ext. 162 From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Oct 26 15:52:09 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD99C8@exchange.epr.com> Advanced Simple. It also has Global Motion Compensation All levels And Advanced Coding Efficiency (ACE) also GMC and all levels Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Lei Ming [mailto:LMing@tvia.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 12:05 PM > To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage > > > Hi, > > Is quarter pel estimation used in any Profile/Level? > > Thanks, > > Lei > ---------------------------------- > Lei Ming > Tvia Inc. > (408)982-8588 ext. 162 > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From LMing tvia.com Fri Oct 26 16:11:03 2001 From: LMing tvia.com (Lei Ming) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Message-ID: Thanks. Is there a document described the details of each Profile/Level, such as tools set and parameter constraints. It seems to me that no document gives out very details like "quarter pel estimation usage". Lei -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 2:52 PM To: 'Lei Ming'; 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Advanced Simple. It also has Global Motion Compensation All levels And Advanced Coding Efficiency (ACE) also GMC and all levels Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Lei Ming [mailto:LMing@tvia.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 12:05 PM > To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage > > > Hi, > > Is quarter pel estimation used in any Profile/Level? > > Thanks, > > Lei > ---------------------------------- > Lei Ming > Tvia Inc. > (408)982-8588 ext. 162 > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Oct 26 16:47:43 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD99CC@exchange.epr.com> Parameter contraints are given in the standard ... It will be a great idea to have a document for public distribution to describe the profiles and levels, but it's a considerable effort. I will keep you posted in progress in that respect. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Lei Ming [mailto:LMing@tvia.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 3:11 PM > To: 'Rob Koenen'; 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage > > > Thanks. > > Is there a document described the details of each Profile/Level, > such as tools set and parameter constraints. It seems to me that > no document gives out very details like "quarter pel > estimation usage". > > Lei > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 2:52 PM > To: 'Lei Ming'; 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage > > > Advanced Simple. > It also has Global Motion Compensation > All levels > > And Advanced Coding Efficiency (ACE) > also GMC and all levels > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lei Ming [mailto:LMing@tvia.com] > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 12:05 PM > > To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Is quarter pel estimation used in any Profile/Level? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Lei > > ---------------------------------- > > Lei Ming > > Tvia Inc. > > (408)982-8588 ext. 162 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > From rick.quarti dynapel.com Sat Oct 27 00:21:41 2001 From: rick.quarti dynapel.com (Rick Quarti) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c15e96$803ef700$0201a8c0@mediaone.net> The Advanced Simple Profile incorporates a few extra tools including 1/4 pel motion compensation. The Quarter Pel Motion compensation enhances the precision of the motion compensation scheme, with a small overhead cost. Rick Quarti DynaPel Systems -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Lei Ming Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 3:05 PM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quarter pel estimation usage Hi, Is quarter pel estimation used in any Profile/Level? Thanks, Lei ---------------------------------- Lei Ming Tvia Inc. (408)982-8588 ext. 162 _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From Bill streamingmedia.com Sun Oct 28 15:12:12 2001 From: Bill streamingmedia.com (Bill Bernat) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF News] New Patent Holder Group Press Releases Message-ID: <0BC3DFA40E5BD511919800B0D0D0893B1826BE@MAILSRV> This came from the news list, but I didn't get the sense that was a discussion list so I'm forwarding it to news for discussion. > Progress Report on MPEG-4 Visual (Simple and Core) Joint Patent License. (http://www.m4if.org/patents/video101801.html ) This is very encouraging news; however, I noticed that while ISMA 1.0 maps to both Simple and Advanced Simple (at level 3), this news about likely licensing activities mentions only Simple and Core. I do realise that the M4IF and the ISMA are not at all the same organization, and I realize that it is the M4IF that is sanctioned by the MPEG and charged with coordinating licensing activities. Also, I realize I may be asking about things that can't be revealed publicly at present and if so then no worries, I apologize and understand. That said, I'm wondering if anybody can shed any light on (a) whether or not Advanced Simple expected to be licensable in early 2002 and (b) if so, is that through the MPEG LA/M4VisualPGH or perhaps just through MPEGLA sans M4VisualPHG or perhaps some other means altogether and (c) if anybody from the ISMA is here perhaps you can share whether or not the ISMA might ralley now for Core in a quick release of a follow-on interoperability specificaiton (ISMA 1.1/2.0?) to and (d) how big a difference does the motion compensation that is in Advanced Simple provide over Core, which does not have motion compensation AFAIK, make in terms of encoding efficiency. (I realize that encoding efficiency isn't everything, especially when compared to some of what Core offers, but still curious....) Thanks, -billb -----Original Message----- From: Peter Haighton [mailto:Peter.Haighton@m4if.org] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 7:21 AM To: news@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF News] New Patent Holder Group Press Releases Hello Everyone, There are 2 new press releases from the Patent holder groups at the M4IF website. The first is from the M4VisualPHG, and the second from the M4AudioLC. The links are provided below. Peter Progress Report on MPEG-4 Visual (Simple and Core) Joint Patent License. (http://www.m4if.org/patents/video101801.html ) Progress Report on MPEG-4 Audio Patent Licensing. (http://www.m4if.org/patents/audio101901.html ) -- Peter Haighton VideoSpheres Inc. 84 Hines Road Kanata, Ontario Canada, K2K 3G3 Tel: (613) 270-9646 x3022 Fax: (613) 271-9442 email: peterh@VideoSpheres.com See http://www.m4if.org for the latest on MPEG-4 -----Original Message----- From: Peter Haighton [mailto:Peter.Haighton@m4if.org] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2023 7:21 AM To: news@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF News] New Patent Holder Group Press Releases Hello Everyone, There are 2 new press releases from the Patent holder groups at the M4IF website. The first is from the M4VisualPHG, and the second from the M4AudioLC. The links are provided below. Peter Progress Report on MPEG-4 Visual (Simple and Core) Joint Patent License. (http://www.m4if.org/patents/video101801.html ) Progress Report on MPEG-4 Audio Patent Licensing. (http://www.m4if.org/patents/audio101901.html ) -- Peter Haighton VideoSpheres Inc. 84 Hines Road Kanata, Ontario Canada, K2K 3G3 Tel: (613) 270-9646 x3022 Fax: (613) 271-9442 email: peterh@VideoSpheres.com See http://www.m4if.org for the latest on MPEG-4 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011028/19c5ec23/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Sun Oct 28 22:20:49 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF News] New Patent Holder Group Pres s Releases Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD99DC@exchange.epr.com> Bill, couple of answers. 1) M4IF is not sanctioned by MPEG, and certainly not to deal with patents. Nobody is, for the simple reasons that noboday can sanction anyone to deal with these issues. Actually, M4IF only acts as a catalyst which doesn't deal with patents iteself either. 2) M4IF and MPEG and ISMA all have good relationships (no wonder, it's often the same people) and there is no disconnect here. 3) M4IF has already done everything necessary to have the patent work started for Advanced Simple (because its members had asked to do so, and also following a request from ISMA). So has MPEGLA. 4) The only gating factor is now that the standard with Advanced Simple still cannot be bought from ISO. I am looking for a National Body (even a single one will do) that sells the pre-final version ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 FDAM 2. The text of this document is identical to that of the final amendment that will be published by ISO. > This is very encouraging news; however, I noticed that while > ISMA 1.0 maps to both Simple and Advanced Simple (at level > 3), this news about likely licensing activities mentions only > Simple and Core. I do realise that the M4IF and the ISMA are > not at all the same organization, and I realize that it is > the M4IF that is sanctioned by the MPEG and charged with > coordinating licensing activities. Also, I realize I may be > asking about things that can't be revealed publicly at > present and if so then no worries, I apologize and understand. > > That said, I'm wondering if anybody can shed any light on (a) > whether or not Advanced Simple expected to be licensable in > early 2002 and ASAP yes. MPEGLA is ready to issue the call, who the licensing agent will be - I do not know. > (b) if so, is that through the MPEG > LA/M4VisualPGH or perhaps just through MPEGLA sans > M4VisualPHG or perhaps some other means altogether and Doesn't matter to me, as long as it is fast. I would be happy if it were available from multiple parties. > how big a difference does the motion compensation > that is in Advanced Simple provide over Core, which does not > have motion compensation AFAIK, Core has no MC? Of course it does. Anyway, Advanced Simple has quarter pel MC and Global MC; Core only has 1/2 pel. The gains are significant, but I do not have percentages. Perhaps someone else on the list does. THanks for allowing me to explain where we are and to correct a few possible misunderstandings, Best, Rob From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Oct 29 13:20:38 2001 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on wall clock Message-ID: What is the context ? cu, O. > -----Message d'origine----- > De?: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]De la part de Yang, > Wei Jian (Wei Jian) > Envoy??: lundi 22 octobre 2001 03:22 > ??: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Objet?: [M4IF Technotes] help on wall clock > > > hi: > > What is wall clock in MPEG4 system? > > Thanks > Mac > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Oct 29 13:29:32 2001 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: MPEG 4 Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Oct 29 13:20:01 2001 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP Message-ID: And you can use FlexMux is you want to avoid proliferation of connections ... cu, O. > -----Message d'origine----- > De?: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]De la part de Lim, Young-Kwon > Envoy??: lundi 22 octobre 2001 06:37 > ??: Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian); technotes@lists.m4if.org > Objet?: Re: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP > > > Dear Wei Jian, > > You can use UDP without RTP/RTCP to deliver MPEG-4 SL packets. > > Sincerely, > Young-Kwon LIM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Yang, Wei Jian (Wei Jian)" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2023 11:08 AM > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on RTP > > > > hi,all: > > > > there is synchronization/configuration mechanism in > MPEG4 AU,Can we skip > > RTP/RTCP to make connections between server and client in LAN? > > > > Thanks > > Mac > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From Bill streamingmedia.com Mon Oct 29 08:04:01 2001 From: Bill streamingmedia.com (Bill Bernat) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF News] New Patent Holder Group Pres s Releases Message-ID: <0BC3DFA40E5BD511919800B0D0D0893B1826C3@MAILSRV> That's great Rob, thank you. This clears up some of the bigger areas were I have been puzzled regarding licensing. -billb > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2023 10:21 PM > To: 'Bill Bernat'; 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] RE: [M4IF News] New Patent > Holder Group Pres s Releases > > > Bill, > > couple of answers. > > 1) M4IF is not sanctioned by MPEG, and certainly not to deal with > patents. Nobody is, for the simple reasons that noboday > can sanction > anyone to deal with these issues. > Actually, M4IF only acts as a catalyst which doesn't deal > with patents > iteself either. > 2) M4IF and MPEG and ISMA all have good relationships (no wonder, it's > often the same people) and there is no disconnect here. > 3) M4IF has already done everything necessary to have the patent work > started for Advanced Simple (because its members had asked > to do so, > and also following a request from ISMA). So has MPEGLA. > 4) The only gating factor is now that the standard with > Advanced Simple > still cannot be bought from ISO. I am looking for a National Body > (even a single one will do) that sells the pre-final version > ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 FDAM 2. The text of this document is > identical to > that of the final amendment that will be published by ISO. > > > This is very encouraging news; however, I noticed that while > > ISMA 1.0 maps to both Simple and Advanced Simple (at level > > 3), this news about likely licensing activities mentions only > > Simple and Core. I do realise that the M4IF and the ISMA are > > not at all the same organization, and I realize that it is > > the M4IF that is sanctioned by the MPEG and charged with > > coordinating licensing activities. Also, I realize I may be > > asking about things that can't be revealed publicly at > > present and if so then no worries, I apologize and understand. > > > > That said, I'm wondering if anybody can shed any light on (a) > > whether or not Advanced Simple expected to be licensable in > > early 2002 and > > ASAP yes. MPEGLA is ready to issue the call, who the > licensing agent will be - I do not know. > > > (b) if so, is that through the MPEG > > LA/M4VisualPGH or perhaps just through MPEGLA sans > > M4VisualPHG or perhaps some other means altogether and > > Doesn't matter to me, as long as it is fast. > I would be happy if it were available from multiple parties. > > > how big a difference does the motion compensation > > that is in Advanced Simple provide over Core, which does not > > have motion compensation AFAIK, > > Core has no MC? Of course it does. > Anyway, Advanced Simple has quarter pel MC and Global MC; > Core only has 1/2 pel. The gains are significant, but I do > not have percentages. Perhaps someone else on the list does. > > THanks for allowing me to explain where we are and to correct > a few possible misunderstandings, > > Best, > Rob > From pang ati.com Mon Oct 29 12:19:10 2001 From: pang ati.com (Patrick Ng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Message-ID: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FF6@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Dear MPEG4 Experts, Is Global Motion Compensation (GMC) a visual tool applied to Sprite video object only? If the answer is "yes", why in Table V2-39 the Advanced Coding Efficiency Profile needs to support Global Motion Compensation while it does not have to support Sprite object? In the MPEG-4 spec. (ISO 14496-2), GMC decoding is in Section 7.8.7 which is under the section of 7.8 (Sprite decoding). That leds me to think that Global Motion Compensation is for Sprite video object only. Thanks Patrick Ng -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011029/6925c3e6/attachment.html From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Mon Oct 29 14:51:38 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation In-Reply-To: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FF6@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Message-ID: <002201c160b3$2029fe40$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Global Motion CompensationPatrick, Please note that Sprite is not a video object. Instead, Sprite is a VOP_coding_type (or a Tool). Sprite can be static or GMC. If the sprite is of type GMC (i.e., S(GMC) ), then global motion compensation is required. Advanced Coding Efficiency can support S(GMC), therefore it needs to include global motion compensation. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 12:19 PM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Dear MPEG4 Experts, Is Global Motion Compensation (GMC) a visual tool applied to Sprite video object only? If the answer is "yes", why in Table V2-39 the Advanced Coding Efficiency Profile needs to support Global Motion Compensation while it does not have to support Sprite object? In the MPEG-4 spec. (ISO 14496-2), GMC decoding is in Section 7.8.7 which is under the section of 7.8 (Sprite decoding). That leds me to think that Global Motion Compensation is for Sprite video object only. Thanks Patrick Ng -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011029/3bbc93bf/attachment.html From pang ati.com Mon Oct 29 16:33:24 2001 From: pang ati.com (Patrick Ng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Message-ID: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FF7@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Hi Prabhu, Thanks for the reply. That is where the confusion comes from. In Table V2-39, there is no check mark 'X' in Sprite tool for Advanced Coding Efficiency. So shouldn't global motion compensation be not required, should it? Patrick Ng -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 2:52 PM To: 'Patrick Ng'; 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Patrick, Please note that Sprite is not a video object. Instead, Sprite is a VOP_coding_type (or a Tool). Sprite can be static or GMC. If the sprite is of type GMC (i.e., S(GMC) ), then global motion compensation is required. Advanced Coding Efficiency can support S(GMC), therefore it needs to include global motion compensation. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 12:19 PM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Dear MPEG4 Experts, Is Global Motion Compensation (GMC) a visual tool applied to Sprite video object only? If the answer is "yes", why in Table V2-39 the Advanced Coding Efficiency Profile needs to support Global Motion Compensation while it does not have to support Sprite object? In the MPEG-4 spec. (ISO 14496-2), GMC decoding is in Section 7.8.7 which is under the section of 7.8 (Sprite decoding). That leds me to think that Global Motion Compensation is for Sprite video object only. Thanks Patrick Ng -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011029/5b083afb/attachment.html From Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com Mon Oct 29 17:09:25 2001 From: Prabhudev_Hosur objectvideo.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation In-Reply-To: <917FBA8D767CD111BFA600805FBB2C24057F9FF7@tchwexh01.to.atitech.com> Message-ID: <000401c160c6$5f289210$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Global Motion CompensationPatrick, For Advanced Coding Efficiency, there is 'X' mark in front of Global motion compensation tool in V2-39. Whereas, there is no 'X' mark in front of 'Sprite', because (in my opinion) in V2-39, 'Sprite' implicitly means 'static sprite', which is a Version-1 Tool. Thus, Advanced Coding Efficiency profile supports GMC, but not static sprites. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 4:33 PM To: 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Hi Prabhu, Thanks for the reply. That is where the confusion comes from. In Table V2-39, there is no check mark 'X' in Sprite tool for Advanced Coding Efficiency. So shouldn't global motion compensation be not required, should it? Patrick Ng -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 2:52 PM To: 'Patrick Ng'; 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Patrick, Please note that Sprite is not a video object. Instead, Sprite is a VOP_coding_type (or a Tool). Sprite can be static or GMC. If the sprite is of type GMC (i.e., S(GMC) ), then global motion compensation is required. Advanced Coding Efficiency can support S(GMC), therefore it needs to include global motion compensation. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 12:19 PM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Dear MPEG4 Experts, Is Global Motion Compensation (GMC) a visual tool applied to Sprite video object only? If the answer is "yes", why in Table V2-39 the Advanced Coding Efficiency Profile needs to support Global Motion Compensation while it does not have to support Sprite object? In the MPEG-4 spec. (ISO 14496-2), GMC decoding is in Section 7.8.7 which is under the section of 7.8 (Sprite decoding). That leds me to think that Global Motion Compensation is for Sprite video object only. Thanks Patrick Ng -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011029/0f7fe32c/attachment.html From yosinori crl.hitachi.co.jp Tue Oct 30 10:41:20 2001 From: yosinori crl.hitachi.co.jp (Yoshinori Suzuki) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation References: <000401c160c6$5f289210$1e10a8c0@atom.dbvision.net> Message-ID: <3BDE0540.2973A751@crl.hitachi.co.jp> Dear Prabhu and Patrick, Thank you, Prabhu, for the comments about the table V2-39 issue. I am proposer of GMC, and I would like to clarify about this issue. > For Advanced Coding Efficiency, there is 'X' mark in front of Global > motion compensation tool in V2-39. Whereas, there is no 'X'mark in front > of 'Sprite', because (in my opinion) in V2-39, 'Sprite' implicitly means > 'static sprite', which is a Version-1 Tool. > > Thus, Advanced Coding Efficiency profile supports GMC, but not static sprites. > > Prabhu The comments from Prabhudev are correct. "Sprite" in V2-39 means the static and low-latency sprite tools (S-VOP in case sprite_enable == '01'), and "GMC" means the global motion compensation tool (S-VOP in case sprite_enable=='10'). Advanced coding efficiency profile does not support the static or low-latency sprite tool. Therefore, there is no 'X' mark in front of 'Sprite' in V2-39 for that profile. Best regards, Yoshinori Suzuki Hitachi, Ltd. From lcheng61 hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 16:14:12 2001 From: lcheng61 hotmail.com (Liang Cheng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on IM1 Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011030/f6632247/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 30 00:40:36 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04B5EBF9@exchange.epr.com> Just to clarify: The only reason there is no sprite in ACE is that we decided not to have it ... it has nothing to do with it being a Version 1 tool. There are many V.1 tools in profiles that were only defined in V.2 Thanks, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 2:09 PM To: 'Patrick Ng'; 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Patrick, For Advanced Coding Efficiency, there is 'X' mark in front of Global motion compensation tool in V2-39. Whereas, there is no 'X' mark in front of 'Sprite', because (in my opinion) in V2-39, 'Sprite' implicitly means 'static sprite', which is a Version-1 Tool. Thus, Advanced Coding Efficiency profile supports GMC, but not static sprites. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 4:33 PM To: 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Hi Prabhu, Thanks for the reply. That is where the confusion comes from. In Table V2-39, there is no check mark 'X' in Sprite tool for Advanced Coding Efficiency. So shouldn't global motion compensation be not required, should it? Patrick Ng -----Original Message----- From: Prabhudev Hosur [mailto:Prabhudev_Hosur@objectvideo.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 2:52 PM To: 'Patrick Ng'; 'MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Patrick, Please note that Sprite is not a video object. Instead, Sprite is a VOP_coding_type (or a Tool). Sprite can be static or GMC. If the sprite is of type GMC (i.e., S(GMC) ), then global motion compensation is required. Advanced Coding Efficiency can support S(GMC), therefore it needs to include global motion compensation. Prabhu -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Ng Sent: Monday, October 29, 2023 12:19 PM To: MPEG4 technical notes (E-mail) Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Global Motion Compensation Dear MPEG4 Experts, Is Global Motion Compensation (GMC) a visual tool applied to Sprite video object only? If the answer is "yes", why in Table V2-39 the Advanced Coding Efficiency Profile needs to support Global Motion Compensation while it does not have to support Sprite object? In the MPEG-4 spec. (ISO 14496-2), GMC decoding is in Section 7.8.7 which is under the section of 7.8 (Sprite decoding). That leds me to think that Global Motion Compensation is for Sprite video object only. Thanks Patrick Ng -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011030/e9d4abea/attachment.html From hning ict.ac.cn Tue Oct 30 16:51:05 2001 From: hning ict.ac.cn (HNING) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] help on IM1 References: Message-ID: <003601c16120$17a4d250$a42ae29f@icthning> Hi I have a question, in the GOV, the B_VOP used P_VOP and I_VOP to form a prediction, but for the last B_VOP(for example , 9B or 8B ) , is the 10I used to form the prediction ? for example £¬at the encoder input, 1 I 2 B 3 B 4 P 5 B 6 B 7 P 8 B 9 B 10 I 11 B 12 B 13 P Can somebody help me£¿ Thank you£¡ Best Regards, Hning -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011030/8d85962b/attachment.html From Bill streamingmedia.com Tue Oct 30 09:32:13 2001 From: Bill streamingmedia.com (Bill Bernat) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Rob Koenen on Hands-On Talk Show Today at 2pm PST Message-ID: <0BC3DFA40E5BD511919800B0D0D0893B3A0022@MAILSRV> Hi, I'll be speaking for an hour with Rob Koenen today (and any folks who call in), live at 2pm PST and on-demand afterward. http://www.streamingmedia.com/talk/view.asp?id=292# MPEG-4 Pioneer: Rob Koenen MPEG-4 knowledge seekers, get MPEG-4 information directly from Rob Koenen, Chairman of ISO MPEG's Requirements Group, and President of the MPEG-4 Industry Forum (M4IF). Call and ask Rob your questions, or just listen as we cover an aggressive agenda including: MPEG-4: how it all started, relation to MPEG -2/-7/-21, potential markets, must-know profiles, FUD surrounding MPEG-4, MPEG-4 Industry Forum, licensing, interoperability, possible migration paths to cable/satellite television, Digital Rights Management, fine granularity scalability profile, and conformance and conformance testing. Thanks, -billb Bill Bernat Streaming Media, Inc. From Bill streamingmedia.com Tue Oct 30 10:01:40 2001 From: Bill streamingmedia.com (Bill Bernat) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] FW: Rob Koenen on Hands-On Talk Show Today at 2pm PST Message-ID: <0BC3DFA40E5BD511919800B0D0D0893B3A0028@MAILSRV> My apologies, should have read: October 30, 2001, 22:00 GMT The show will still be available afterwards on-demand. We hope to hold a similar event at a time of the day and with a dial-in availabilty better suited to international MPEG-4 community members in the near future. Thanks, -billb -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bernat Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2023 9:32 AM To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Subject: Rob Koenen on Hands-On Talk Show Today at 2pm PST Hi, I'll be speaking for an hour with Rob Koenen today (and any folks who call in), live at 2pm PST and on-demand afterward. http://www.streamingmedia.com/talk/view.asp?id=292# MPEG-4 Pioneer: Rob Koenen MPEG-4 knowledge seekers, get MPEG-4 information directly from Rob Koenen, Chairman of ISO MPEG's Requirements Group, and President of the MPEG-4 Industry Forum (M4IF). Call and ask Rob your questions, or just listen as we cover an aggressive agenda including: MPEG-4: how it all started, relation to MPEG -2/-7/-21, potential markets, must-know profiles, FUD surrounding MPEG-4, MPEG-4 Industry Forum, licensing, interoperability, possible migration paths to cable/satellite television, Digital Rights Management, fine granularity scalability profile, and conformance and conformance testing. Thanks, -billb Bill Bernat Streaming Media, Inc. From watanka samsung.com Wed Oct 31 07:56:56 2001 From: watanka samsung.com (S.G.Chang) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Hejp on codebook generation Message-ID: <003101c16196$2cd575a0$48c1dba8@watankamain> Dear Experts and members. I'm interest in making an efficient codebook. I hope somebody help me. For example, here are 64 numbers from 0 to 63 without any relationship. This means that these numbers can be placed any position at random. A simple way is to assign 6 bits to each case. So code size for this case is ?6bits X 64 numbers = 384 bits?. But I think this is not efficient method. If you know good methods or references, know me, please! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Seung-Gi Chang, Ph.D. Senior Engineer R&D Group, PIC Business Team, Digital Media Business SAMSUNG Electronics Co ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20011031/98d1fc43/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Oct 30 15:06:51 2001 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Hejp on codebook generation Message-ID: <720AE932C238D411B4D100C04F10DA6B04BD9A1B@exchange.epr.com> Dear Seung-Gi, This is an interesting question, but not one that has any relation with the MPEG-4 standard. We want to keep the list dedicated to MPEG-4 related matters. Please look for coding theory resources to get your question answered. (and if there is no really relation between the numbers, you'll find this a tough question to answer) Kind Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: S.G.Chang [mailto:watanka@samsung.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2023 2:57 PM To: M4IF Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Hejp on codebook generation Dear Experts and members. I'm interest in making an efficient codebook. I hope somebody help me. For example, here are 64 numbers from 0 to 63 without any relationship. This means that these numbers can be placed any position at random. A simple way is to assign 6 bits to each case. So code size for this case is ?6bits X 64 numbers = 384 bits?. But I think this is not efficient method. If you know good methods or references, know me, please! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Seung-Gi Chang, Ph.D. Senior Engineer R&D Group, PIC Business Team, Digital Media Business SAMSUNG Electronics Co ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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