From padma_volety satyam.net.in Tue Jan 1 09:58:09 2002 From: padma_volety satyam.net.in (Padmavathi Volety) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Fw: New Year Greetings Message-ID: <013001c192ed$e3c61ac0$3c0ca8c0@cute> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From lcheng62 yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 00:51:16 2002 From: lcheng62 yahoo.com (Liang Cheng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about trif Message-ID: <20020105085116.16661.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Could anyone of you tell me what file format the *.trif(mp4) is in the Zvi's Mux project? Where can I find its specification? Thank you. Another question is where can I download the long CIF/CCIR601 420 standard video sequence, such as stefan, mother&daughter, etc? Best Regards, Liang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From emaycock iee.org.uk Mon Jan 7 13:59:42 2002 From: emaycock iee.org.uk (Maycock, Edward) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Visual Media Compression Standards For Today and Tomorrow, 25 Apr il 2002 Message-ID: <31F8C9098B52D41193FA00508BC81B4201BBF4AA@EXCHANGE01> Visual Media Compression Standards For Today and Tomorrow One Day Seminar, 25 April 2002, IEE, Savoy Place, London, UK http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/visualinformation/mpegcall.cfm The IEE is delighted to send you details of the Call for Papers for this multimedia standards awareness event, brought to you by the IEE Professional Network in Visual Information Engineering and the BSI IST/37 Committee. Click on the web link above for instructions on how you can submit an abstract for this event. If you would be interested in receiving a copy of the programme and registration brochure (available February 2002), e-mail Ed Maycock at emaycock@iee.org.uk Ed Maycock Event Executive IEE Savoy Place London WC2R 0BL Tel: +44 (0) 20 7344 5422 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7497 3633 e-mail: emaycock@iee.org.uk From olivier.avaro francetelecom.com Tue Jan 8 13:44:18 2002 From: olivier.avaro francetelecom.com (Olivier Avaro) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about trif In-Reply-To: <20020105085116.16661.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c19853$0e4a6a70$687ec69b@rd.francetelecom.fr> Dear Liang, > Could anyone of you tell me what file format the > *.trif(mp4) is in the Zvi's Mux project? Where can I > find its specification? Thank you. .trif is a file format that was developped by MPEG Systems for internal purposes before MP4 was standardized. It is still supported in some MPEG Systems tools but has now been replaced by MP4, which is the ISO official multimedia file format. There is no ISO official specification of it. Kind regards, Olivier From fred isc.tv Tue Jan 8 10:14:31 2002 From: fred isc.tv (Fred Patton) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: MediaSensors and MediaControl nodes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Can someoone tell me which version/document talks about MediaSensors and MediaControl nodes? Thank you. Best regards, Fred Patton From fjpatton pacbell.net Tue Jan 8 10:06:21 2002 From: fjpatton pacbell.net (Fred Patton) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MediaSensors and MediaControl nodes In-Reply-To: <3BA6E586.4093F8F0@cradle.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Can someoone tell me which version/document talks about MediaSensors and MediaControl nodes? Thank you. Best regards, Fred Patton From olivier.avaro francetelecom.com Tue Jan 8 19:53:49 2002 From: olivier.avaro francetelecom.com (Olivier Avaro) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: MediaSensors and MediaControl nodes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c19875$cf874970$687ec69b@rd.francetelecom.fr> > Can someoone tell me which version/document talks about > MediaSensors and > MediaControl nodes? Formally this is 14496-1:2001/Amd. 2. The text will be final in March 2002. The lattest doc. is N4408 from Pattaya (December 2001). Comments are welcomed. cu, O. From arcin lumictech.com Wed Jan 9 08:59:28 2002 From: arcin lumictech.com (Arcin Bozkurt) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] document regarding MP4 file format Message-ID: <02010908592800.19214@thunderbird> I want to find the official document which describes the MP4 file format. Can you tell me where I can buy/find this document? Thanks Arcin. From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Wed Jan 9 18:58:36 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/HDM) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] document regarding MP4 file format In-Reply-To: <02010908592800.19214@thunderbird> Message-ID: <001101c19946$20481580$c4436a20@rd.francetelecom.fr> > I want to find the official document which describes the MP4 > file format. Can > you tell me where I can buy/find this document? You can buy it from ISO. It is 14496-1:2001 Coding of audio-visual objects --Part 1: Systems. Kind regards, O. From shiv uiscpl.com Thu Jan 10 10:11:46 2002 From: shiv uiscpl.com (Shiv M Turmari) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] RE: In-Reply-To: <02010908592800.19214@thunderbird> Message-ID: <000101c19991$1ca927c0$b9c809c0@turmari> Dear Sirs We take pleasure in introducing our company U & I System Design ltd, Bangalore,India to your kind reference. 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Business Development) E-mail ID : < shiv@uiscpl.com > Ph: +91 80 3460925, 3460918 Fax: +91 80 3460877 Mobile No. ++ 91 98451 69087 Please visit our website for a comprehensive details of our company From Jani.Huoponen hantro.com Fri Jan 11 12:03:16 2002 From: Jani.Huoponen hantro.com (Jani Huoponen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] YUV sequence copyrights Message-ID: Hi, There was some discussion about video material copyrights in the M4IF interoperability mailing list some time ago, but does anyone know what is the copyright status of the widely used foreman, container, news, etc. YUV secuences? In my understanding they are allowed to be used at least for research and standardization purposes, is that right? Who owns the copyrights for these sequences? Are there special limitations for the usage? BR, Jani From gchandra tataelxsi.co.in Fri Jan 11 16:24:25 2002 From: gchandra tataelxsi.co.in (Chandra Sekhar Reddy G) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights Message-ID: <000f01c19a8e$57259980$cc14010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Hi, When you talk of copyrights about standards, is it for the method or source-code or product or multimedia-material? or is it that copyrights are there in every stage? Chandra From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 11 08:17:30 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591872ED@exchange.epr.com> In the most recent case, the question was about test sequences - so that's multmedia material. Standards text is copyrighted too, by ISO in MPEG's case. The same applies to source code, but in MPEG-4, source code can be used without copyright royalties if it is used to build an implementation of the standard Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Chandra Sekhar Reddy G [mailto:gchandra@tataelxsi.co.in] > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2024 2:54 > To: M4IF TechNotes > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights > > > Hi, > When you talk of copyrights about standards, > is it for the method or source-code or product or multimedia-material? > or is it that copyrights are there in every stage? > Chandra > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Jan 14 17:04:44 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Reference software Error Resilient Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0B84@exchange.epr.com> Sorry fo rth elate reply. We think that there is no error resilient reference ref soft. While there is syntax in the MPEG-4 Visual Standard that allows you to do cleverthings in the case of errpors, and this syntax has been proven to work in tests (people were indeed able to conceal errors by doing clever stuf) these clever things are not normatively defined in the standard. Everybody can do their won clever thing in the decoder, taking advantage of the tools. Best, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:garysull@microsoft.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2024 14:54 To: Rob Koenen Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Reference software Error Resilient I think the answer is no. -----Original Message----- From: Chang Yoong Choon [mailto:cychoon@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2023 16:44 To: rkoenen@intertrust.com; tomotohara@yahoo.com; khuber@sorensontech.com Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Reference software Error Resilient Dear Rob Koenen, Tomo, Kris: Many thanks for your kind explanation and help. I really appreciate. Anyway, do your have any idea where I can download or get the modified Microsoft or MoMuSys MPEG-4 reference software that can decode MPEG-4 bitstream filled with errors? Is such decoder available for download in the internet? Thank you. best regards Yoong-Choon Chang >From: Rob Koenen >To: "'Tomo'" , Kris Huber , "'Chang Yoong Choon'" >CC: technotes@lists.m4if.org >Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Reference software Error Resilient >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2023 14:30:57 -0800 > >Exactly. > >It should be clear that the objective of providing reference >code is not to help everyone in business with highly optimized software >at no cost. While setting an interoperable standard, MPEG must leave >room for competition between vendors, and must also see to it that >contributors to the standard are not asked to give away their >competitive advantages. > >Only the elements needed for interoperability are standardized. >Hence: >- there is no standardized encoder, and don't expect the reference > encoder to be optimized (Although there is another part of the > MPEG-4 Standard, part 7, which *will* provide a video encoder that is > optimized. This is going to be published early next year.) >- Do not expect reference decoders to be optimized beyond what it normative. > > Error resilience tools are there to help a decoder cope with non-compliant > > bitstreams that can occur as a result of errors. The response to such > non-compliant bitstreams is not normatively prescribed in the standard. > The tools have been shown to allow implementations to do a pretty decent > job at coping with errors, but these implementations are private to the > companies that built them. > > >Rob > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tomo [mailto:tomotohara@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2023 9:09 > > To: Kris Huber; 'Chang Yoong Choon' > > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Reference software Error Resilient > > > > > > Hello. > > > > I think this is one of the portions left open to "decoder system" > > designer and it is one of the technologies that each indivisual > > or corporation can add proprietary algorithm. There are several > > technical papers. > > > > Even MPEG-2, I noticed certian DVD players are very stable against > > stream errors, but some not-well-designed DVD players hang up > > very miserablly. > > > > _____ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020114/1a50e413/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Jan 14 17:29:11 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: FW: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0B8B@exchange.epr.com> FYI -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:garysull@microsoft.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2024 15:01 To: Rob Koenen Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights Not a simple question. Some sequences are international standard sequences blessed by ITU-R or ITU-T or SMPTE. Some others are definitely publicly available for test and research use. Some others are available for use in particular standardization arenas only. Some others are in a basically unknown state (at least to me). I don't know of any cases where anyone has gotten upset over use or distribution of the usual sequences. -Gary +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] +> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2024 9:41 AM +> To: Gary Sullivan +> Subject: FW: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights +> +> +> Do you know what the situations wrt test sequences is? +> +> Rob +> +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Liang Cheng [mailto:lcheng62@yahoo.com] +> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2024 9:30 +> To: Rob Koenen +> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights +> +> +> Hi, +> +> Could you tell me some sites so that I can download +> the standard YUV sequence for my MPEG test? Thank +> you. +> +> Liang Cheng +> --- Rob Koenen wrote: +> > In the most recent case, the question was about +> > test sequences - so that's multmedia material. +> > +> > Standards text is copyrighted too, by ISO in MPEG's +> > case. +> > +> > The same applies to source code, but in MPEG-4, +> > source +> > code can be used without copyright royalties if it +> > is used +> > to build an implementation of the standard +> > +> > Rob +> > +> > > -----Original Message----- +> > > From: Chandra Sekhar Reddy G +> > [mailto:gchandra@tataelxsi.co.in] +> > > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2024 2:54 +> > > To: M4IF TechNotes +> > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] copyrights +> > > +> > > +> > > Hi, +> > > When you talk of copyrights about standards, +> > > is it for the method or source-code or product or +> > multimedia-material? +> > > or is it that copyrights are there in every stage? +> > > Chandra +> > > +> > > +> > > _______________________________________________ +> > > Technotes mailing list +> > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> > > +> > _______________________________________________ +> > Technotes mailing list +> > Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> +> +> __________________________________________________ +> Do You Yahoo!? +> Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! +> http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ +> From tamer.shanableh motorola.com Tue Jan 15 15:13:34 2002 From: tamer.shanableh motorola.com (Shanableh Tamer-BTS027) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:31 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Syntax amendment recommendation for the SSP Message-ID: Hello A proposal was discussed at the MPEG Pattaya meeting (m7651 document) which recommends amendment of the syntax of the MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Profile (SSP) such that the enhancement layers can include OPTIONAL error resilience tools. These tools are simply re-used from the base layer including video_packet_headers, Data Partitioning and Reversible VLC. Note that in terms of software implementation no new code is needed, this is because the error resilience tools are already implemented in the base layer of the SSP. In fact the reference Microsoft decoder was found to correctly decode the proposed SSP syntax without any further modifications. If you are building an implementation of MPEG-4, I would like to hear any comments you have on this proposal. Tamer Shanableh Research Engineer Tamer.Shanableh@Motorola.com From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jan 15 12:47:01 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Syntax amendment recommendation for the SSP Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0BD9@exchange.epr.com> Very good initiative, Tamer! One clarification: the tools may be OPTIONAL for use in ENcoding, but understanding the syntaxt in the DEcoder is MANDATORY. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Shanableh Tamer-BTS027 [mailto:tamer.shanableh@motorola.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2024 7:14 > To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Syntax amendment recommendation for the SSP > > > > > Hello > > A proposal was discussed at the MPEG Pattaya meeting > (m7651 document) which recommends amendment of the syntax of > the MPEG-4 Simple Scalable Profile (SSP) such that the > enhancement layers can include OPTIONAL error resilience > tools. These tools are simply re-used from the base layer > including video_packet_headers, Data Partitioning and Reversible VLC. > > Note that in terms of software implementation no new > code is needed, this is because the error resilience tools > are already implemented in the base layer of the SSP. In fact > the reference Microsoft decoder was found to correctly decode > the proposed SSP syntax without any further modifications. > > If you are building an implementation of MPEG-4, I > would like to hear any comments you have on this proposal. > > Tamer Shanableh > Research Engineer > Tamer.Shanableh@Motorola.com > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From mike isc.tv Tue Jan 15 15:59:27 2002 From: mike isc.tv (Morris, Mike) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] problem: MPEG4 vs. VRML Message-ID: <3551AF47C184454781793DC177EAFC9202B67E@EXCH-VS-AC1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> Hello, I have run in to a problem with the EnvivioTV plugin in QT5. We have tested the same code in a VRML browser and the result is correct there: ROUTE touchSensorABC.touchTime TO mediaXYZ.startTime IN QT: when the appropriate region is clicked, mediaXYZ starts playing from the time index of the scene. In other words, if you click 03.00 seconds in to the scene, mediaXYZ starts playing 03.00 seconds from its beginning. IN VRML: whenever you click, mediaXYZ plays from its beginning, the way it should. Does MPEG4 differ from VRML in this respect? Has anyone a suggestion to work around this issue? All suggestions and any help will be greatly appreciated! Mike Morris Engineer mike@isc.tv -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020115/5966c418/attachment.html From the_ether btinternet.com Wed Jan 16 18:16:23 2002 From: the_ether btinternet.com (the_ether) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Codec testing methodology Message-ID: <004b01c19eb9$ea7418e0$122523d9@opsus> Hi Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am aware of the video files used for conformance testing but I was wondering whether there were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary steps such as ME or comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input image and a given target bit rate? As far as I know there are only conformance tests and subjective tests of the quality of the end, decompressed images. Regards garham From gautam noida.hcltech.com Thu Jan 17 13:21:37 2002 From: gautam noida.hcltech.com (Gautam Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] purchage ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 AMD 1 & AMD 2 !!! Message-ID: Dear All, Can anyone let me know where can i purchage ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 AMD 1 (studio profile) and AMD 2(streaming video profile) from? i could not find the link in the ISO site. earlier it was available at http://www.m4if.org/mpeg4/videofdam2.html, but now it's missing. Thanks and Regards Gautam Kumar _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From sps iis.fhg.de Thu Jan 17 20:26:11 2002 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology References: <004b01c19eb9$ea7418e0$122523d9@opsus> Message-ID: <3C472552.7CCC26A4@iis.fhg.de> Dear Garham, all, I cannot tell you the details for video, but for audio there are a bunch of sequences of compressed audio coming along with reference waveforms. For most of these sequences there is a test procedure described that compares the output of your decoder with the reference waveform. You may call your decoder conform with MPEG-4 only, if the decoder passes the appropriate tests. Details can be found in the conformance part of the standard (ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000, Amd1 seems not yet been published). Best regards, Ralph the_ether wrote: > > Hi > > Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am aware of the > video files used for conformance testing but I was wondering whether there > were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary steps such as ME or > comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input image and a given > target bit rate? > > As far as I know there are only conformance tests and subjective tests of > the quality of the end, decompressed images. > > Regards > > garham > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 336 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020117/d7d6d2e4/sps.bin From laur itcnetworks.ro Fri Jan 18 14:51:55 2002 From: laur itcnetworks.ro (Laurentiu Grigoriu) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models Message-ID: <3C481A6B.FA653834@itcnetworks.ro> Hi all, Introduction: (please correct me if I'm wrong) MPEG-4 dynamic coding schema is based on 2 elements: 1. Image segmentation into (possible variable-size) blocks 2. A group of segment representation models: DCT, background mode, motion compensation mode, fractal mode... One and only one representation model is chosen for each segment. Questions: 1. Does the MPEG-4 standard present the flexibility of adding one more NEW representation model? 2. How can this be standardized? (update the present standard) 3. How many representation models can be added? Hope I'm not boring you. Regards, Laurentiu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020118/2ac1b5f5/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 18 13:43:28 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187358@exchange.epr.com> Introduction: MPEG-4 supports different object types. Many of these are not block based. Objects (moving video, stills, streaming text, animated face, 2D Mesh with texture, voice, generic Audio, synthetic music, etc) all have their own optimized representation (coding) Questions: 1. New object types can be added in a system 1) through a registration procedure to register private object types 2) extension of the standard 2. Updating present standard? Only if current framework is missing functionalit, or if major improvements in e.g. compression are apparent. Not for Yet Another Tool for a type of content that is already supported 3. As many as needed, under the above rules. There is no set maximum. But there are not going to be a whole lot. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Laurentiu Grigoriu [mailto:laur@itcnetworks.ro] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2024 4:52 To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models Hi all, Introduction: (please correct me if I'm wrong) MPEG-4 dynamic coding schema is based on 2 elements: 1. Image segmentation into (possible variable-size) blocks 2. A group of segment representation models: DCT, background mode, motion compensation mode, fractal mode... One and only one representation model is chosen for each segment. Questions: 1. Does the MPEG-4 standard present the flexibility of adding one more NEW representation model? 2. How can this be standardized? (update the present standard) 3. How many representation models can be added? Hope I'm not boring you. Regards, Laurentiu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020118/5bb48d53/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 18 17:24:24 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] purchage ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 AMD 1 & AMD 2 !!! Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187374@exchange.epr.com> Gautam, the link still works. Here is what it'll tell you: -------------------------- Availability of MPEG-4 Streaming Video Profiles Final Draft Amendement (14496-2:2001 FDAM2) The Streaming Video Profiles Final Draft Amendement (14496-2:2001 FDAM2) will eventually be available for purchase online here http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/StandardsQueryFormHandler.StandardsQueryFormHandler ?languageCode=en&keyword=&lastSearch=false&isoNumber=14496&isoPartNumber=&IC S=&stageCode=&stageDate=&committee=ALL&subcommittee=&scope=CATALOGUE&sortOrd er=ISO Until then, it can be obtained by sending email to sales@iso.ch with your request. ---------------- Best, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Gautam Kumar [mailto:gautam@noida.hcltech.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2024 23:52 > To: Technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] purchage ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001 AMD 1 & AMD 2 > !!! > > > Dear All, > Can anyone let me know where can i purchage ISO/IEC > 14496-2:2001 AMD 1 > (studio profile) > and AMD 2(streaming video profile) from? > i could not find the link in the ISO site. > earlier it was available at > http://www.m4if.org/mpeg4/videofdam2.html, but > now it's missing. > > Thanks and Regards > Gautam Kumar > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 18 17:41:14 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187375@exchange.epr.com> The same applies to Video. Using info obtained from the chair of the Video Group: Yes, there are conformance bitstreams for video too. ftp://ftp.tnt.uni-hannover.de/pub/MPEG/video/conformance has the MPEG-4 confrmance bitstreams. The spirit for pass/fail criteria is essentially the same as for audio. I think the only distinction is that IDCT allows some rounding error tolerance. But that tolerance is well specified. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Ralph Sperschneider [mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de] > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2024 11:26 > To: the_ether > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > Dear Garham, all, > > I cannot tell you the details for video, but for audio there > are a bunch of sequences of compressed audio coming along > with reference waveforms. For most of these sequences there > is a test procedure described that compares the output of > your decoder with the reference waveform. You may call your > decoder conform with MPEG-4 only, if the decoder passes the > appropriate tests. Details can be found in the conformance > part of the standard (ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000, Amd1 seems not > yet been published). > > Best regards, > > Ralph > > > the_ether wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am > aware of the > > video files used for conformance testing but I was > wondering whether there > > were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary > steps such as ME or > > comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input > image and a given > > target bit rate? > > > > As far as I know there are only conformance tests and > subjective tests of > > the quality of the end, decompressed images. > > > > Regards > > > > garham > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > -- > Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 > FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 > Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de > D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ > From the_ether btinternet.com Sat Jan 19 01:52:18 2002 From: the_ether btinternet.com (the_ether) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:32 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology References: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187375@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <003701c1a08b$efd38680$a15f22d9@opsus> Thanks but this refers to conformance testing, no? My post asked about _quality_ testing and of each stage in the compression cycle. Three codecs might conform to the standard but the quality of a) the final images and b) the performance of each individual stage (ME, quantisation etc.) could vary enormously. I asked whether there were any norms for testing the quality of the intermediary stages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Koenen" To: "the_ether" ; Sent: 19 January 2024 01:41 Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > The same applies to Video. Using info obtained from the chair > of the Video Group: > > Yes, there are conformance bitstreams for video too. > ftp://ftp.tnt.uni-hannover.de/pub/MPEG/video/conformance > has the MPEG-4 confrmance bitstreams. > > The spirit for pass/fail criteria is essentially the same > as for audio. > > I think the only distinction is that IDCT allows some > rounding error tolerance. But that tolerance is well specified. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ralph Sperschneider [mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de] > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2024 11:26 > > To: the_ether > > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > > > > Dear Garham, all, > > > > I cannot tell you the details for video, but for audio there > > are a bunch of sequences of compressed audio coming along > > with reference waveforms. For most of these sequences there > > is a test procedure described that compares the output of > > your decoder with the reference waveform. You may call your > > decoder conform with MPEG-4 only, if the decoder passes the > > appropriate tests. Details can be found in the conformance > > part of the standard (ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000, Amd1 seems not > > yet been published). > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ralph > > > > > > the_ether wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am > > aware of the > > > video files used for conformance testing but I was > > wondering whether there > > > were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary > > steps such as ME or > > > comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input > > image and a given > > > target bit rate? > > > > > > As far as I know there are only conformance tests and > > subjective tests of > > > the quality of the end, decompressed images. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > garham > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Technotes mailing list > > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > > -- > > Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 > > FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 > > Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de > > D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 18 18:03:01 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187378@exchange.epr.com> > I asked whether there were any norms for testing the quality of the > intermediary stages. No, there are not in MPEG -- and actually note anywhere else either. There is a great deal of research on automated quality evaluation. See http://www.vqeg.org/ , and some manufacturers may tell you there is an answer, but measures are far from perfect. THe only way to really know the quality is to do double-blind subjective testing with quite a fews subjects. You will find codec comparison test results that are less than perfect, and very questionable from a scientific/statistical point of view. Always carefully see how tests were done! It is very important to point out that MPEG doesn't standardize the encoding process, on purpose. This allows competing products in the market while maintaining interoperability. It also means that the "quality of MPEG-4" will improve over time -- and varies from one encoder manufacturer to the other. You'll have seen the same with MPEG-2. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: the_ether [mailto:the_ether@btinternet.com] > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2024 17:52 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > Thanks but this refers to conformance testing, no? > > My post asked about _quality_ testing and of each stage in > the compression > cycle. Three codecs might conform to the standard but the > quality of a) the > final images and b) the performance of each individual stage (ME, > quantisation etc.) could vary enormously. > > I asked whether there were any norms for testing the quality of the > intermediary stages. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Koenen" > To: "the_ether" ; > Sent: 19 January 2024 01:41 > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > > The same applies to Video. Using info obtained from the chair > > of the Video Group: > > > > Yes, there are conformance bitstreams for video too. > > ftp://ftp.tnt.uni-hannover.de/pub/MPEG/video/conformance > > has the MPEG-4 confrmance bitstreams. > > > > The spirit for pass/fail criteria is essentially the same > > as for audio. > > > > I think the only distinction is that IDCT allows some > > rounding error tolerance. But that tolerance is well specified. > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ralph Sperschneider [mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de] > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2024 11:26 > > > To: the_ether > > > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > > > > > > > Dear Garham, all, > > > > > > I cannot tell you the details for video, but for audio there > > > are a bunch of sequences of compressed audio coming along > > > with reference waveforms. For most of these sequences there > > > is a test procedure described that compares the output of > > > your decoder with the reference waveform. You may call your > > > decoder conform with MPEG-4 only, if the decoder passes the > > > appropriate tests. Details can be found in the conformance > > > part of the standard (ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000, Amd1 seems not > > > yet been published). > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > the_ether wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am > > > aware of the > > > > video files used for conformance testing but I was > > > wondering whether there > > > > were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary > > > steps such as ME or > > > > comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input > > > image and a given > > > > target bit rate? > > > > > > > > As far as I know there are only conformance tests and > > > subjective tests of > > > > the quality of the end, decompressed images. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > garham > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Technotes mailing list > > > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > > > > -- > > > Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 > > > FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 > > > Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de > > > D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From gautam noida.hcltech.com Mon Jan 21 15:34:30 2002 From: gautam noida.hcltech.com (Gautam Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology Message-ID: Dear all, I have some doubts regarding comformance testing. IS it sufficient for a decoder to pass ISO confermance test? If a decoder passes all the ISO conformance test streams then it simply means that varible length decoding along with some of (not all) the paramerters are decoded correctly. What i mean to ask is that how can we know that the quality and the information in the decoded stream is the actual desired stream ? Should not there be the desired decoded stream or the original streams those have been used for encoding along with the confermance test streams ? So that we can compair our decoded stream bit by bit with the intended one. Besides that how can one test his MPEG4 Video ENCODER ? i can guess only about the interoperability test. Is there any other way to test Encoder ? Awaiting reply warm regards Gautam Kumar -----Original Message----- From: the_ether [mailto:the_ether@btinternet.com] Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2024 7:22 AM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology Thanks but this refers to conformance testing, no? My post asked about _quality_ testing and of each stage in the compression cycle. Three codecs might conform to the standard but the quality of a) the final images and b) the performance of each individual stage (ME, quantisation etc.) could vary enormously. I asked whether there were any norms for testing the quality of the intermediary stages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Koenen" To: "the_ether" ; Sent: 19 January 2024 01:41 Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > The same applies to Video. Using info obtained from the chair > of the Video Group: > > Yes, there are conformance bitstreams for video too. > ftp://ftp.tnt.uni-hannover.de/pub/MPEG/video/conformance > has the MPEG-4 confrmance bitstreams. > > The spirit for pass/fail criteria is essentially the same > as for audio. > > I think the only distinction is that IDCT allows some > rounding error tolerance. But that tolerance is well specified. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ralph Sperschneider [mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de] > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2024 11:26 > > To: the_ether > > Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology > > > > > > Dear Garham, all, > > > > I cannot tell you the details for video, but for audio there > > are a bunch of sequences of compressed audio coming along > > with reference waveforms. For most of these sequences there > > is a test procedure described that compares the output of > > your decoder with the reference waveform. You may call your > > decoder conform with MPEG-4 only, if the decoder passes the > > appropriate tests. Details can be found in the conformance > > part of the standard (ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000, Amd1 seems not > > yet been published). > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ralph > > > > > > the_ether wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Is there any standard testing regime for MPEG-4 codec? I am > > aware of the > > > video files used for conformance testing but I was > > wondering whether there > > > were any other guidelines such as for the intermediary > > steps such as ME or > > > comparisons of signal to noise ratios for a given input > > image and a given > > > target bit rate? > > > > > > As far as I know there are only conformance tests and > > subjective tests of > > > the quality of the end, decompressed images. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > garham > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Technotes mailing list > > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > > -- > > Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 > > FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 > > Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de > > D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From sps iis.fhg.de Mon Jan 21 16:31:48 2002 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Codec testing methodology References: Message-ID: <3C4C3464.E9453E60@iis.fhg.de> Dear Gautam, all, Gautam Kumar wrote: > > Dear all, > I have some doubts regarding comformance testing. > IS it sufficient for a decoder to pass ISO confermance test? It is necessary, but most probably not sufficient. The tests are defined in a way that they check most of the features of most of the tools, but by no means any particularly possible combination. > If a decoder passes all the ISO conformance test streams then it simply > means that > varible length decoding along with some of (not all) the paramerters are > decoded correctly. > What i mean to ask is that how can we know that the quality and > the information in the decoded stream is the actual desired stream ? By comparing it with the output of the reference decoder or with the provided reference sequence, using the comparison tests specified by MPEG in the conformance part of the standard. > Should not there be the desired decoded stream or the original streams > those have been used for encoding along with the confermance test streams ? Yes, the desired decoded stream should be usually there (there might be some special sequences, where other data is provided instead of the decoded reference). A comparison with the original makes not much sence. > So that we can compair our decoded stream bit by bit with the intended one. A bit by bit comparision is most times not possible due to rounding issues. But at least for Audio there are comparison tools available which perform the required tests an deliver a PASS/FAILED output. > Besides that how can one test his MPEG4 Video ENCODER ? > i can guess only about the interoperability test. > Is there any other way to test Encoder ? Wrt to conformance, you might take any available decoder (preferably the reference decoder), and you might want to add some checks to test the individual data elements regarding theyr conformance criteria as defined in the conformance part of the standard. Since you only need the parser, you might even consider to remove the actual decoding part from the software, if speed counts. Testing the quality of the encoder is another issue, but most likely out of scope here. Best regards, Ralph -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Weichselgarten 3 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 336 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020121/aca4085f/sps.bin From Christoph.Stadler dynapel.de Mon Jan 21 16:40:28 2002 From: Christoph.Stadler dynapel.de (Christoph Stadler) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Mismatch of IDCT algorithms Message-ID: <3C4C366C.DCB1BB33@dynapel.de> Dear MPEG-4 community, I am currently concerned with the accumulation of mismatch errors when repeatedly adding residual images during MPEG-4 video decoding. The MPEG-4 Visual standard (e.g. document N4350 ISO/IEC 14496-2) says that every macroblock is required to be 'intra' coded at least every 132 reference VOPs. But this requirement is somewhat hidden as 'Note 1' of the (normative) 'Appendix A'. And the MoMuSys reference codec seems to ignore this rule too. I understand that IEEE 1180-1990 demands a limitation of the number of residuals that may be added even with a conform IDCT. And our tests show, that violation of this can cause a severe degradation in image quality if encoder and decoder use different (but conform) IDCT algorithms. So there are my questions : 1.) To which extend is the intra refresh every 132 frames required ? 2.) Can an MPEG-4 bitstream exceeding the 132-refresh-rule actually be valid ? 3.) Does the MoMoSys reference codec really ignore this refresh, and if so, why ? Thanks in advance and Best regards, Christoph Stadler From laur itcnetworks.ro Mon Jan 21 18:32:40 2002 From: laur itcnetworks.ro (Laurentiu Grigoriu) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models References: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187358@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <3C4C42A8.2D0BA087@itcnetworks.ro> Hi Rob, Can a new (different) motion-description-based representation model be added? (is it possible?) There are already 2 motion-based representation models (at least): "background mode" - assuming zero motion "motion compensation" mode - assuming constant motion and "animated face" can also be included into this category If any mistake, please correct me. Laurentiu > Introduction: MPEG-4 supports different object types. Many of theseare not block based. Objects (moving video, stills, streaming text, animatedface, 2D Mesh with texture, voice, generic Audio, > synthetic music, etc) all have their own optimized representation (coding)Questions:1. New object types can be added in a system1) through a registration procedure to register private object types2) > extension of the standard2. Updating present standard?Only if current framework is missing functionalit, or if major improvementsin e.g. compression are apparent. Not for Yet Another Tool for a type > of content that is already supported3. As many as needed, under the above rules. There is no set maximum. But there are not going to be a whole lot.Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laurentiu Grigoriu [mailto:laur@itcnetworks.ro] > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2024 4:52 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models > > Hi all, > > Introduction: (please correct me if I'm wrong) > MPEG-4 dynamic coding schema is based on 2 elements: > 1. Image segmentation into (possible variable-size) blocks > 2. A group of segment representation models: > DCT, background mode, motion compensation mode, fractal mode... > One and only one representation model is chosen for each segment. > > > Questions: > 1. Does the MPEG-4 standard present the flexibility of adding one more NEW representation model? > 2. How can this be standardized? (update the present standard) > 3. How many representation models can be added? > > Hope I'm not boring you. > > Regards, > Laurentiu > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020121/39d787b6/attachment.html From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jan 21 12:02:36 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Mismatch of IDCT algorithms Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B66993@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Christoph, Klaus Diepold was also discussing IDCT mismatch problems recently. You might want to check with him. +> 1.) To which extend is the intra refresh every 132 frames required ? I believe it is required. +> 2.) Can an MPEG-4 bitstream exceeding the 132-refresh-rule actually be +> valid ? I believe the answer is No. +> 3.) Does the MoMoSys reference codec really ignore this refresh, +> and if so, why ? I don't know. Could be a bug. Best Regards, Gary Sullivan +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Christoph Stadler [mailto:Christoph.Stadler@dynapel.de] +> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2024 7:40 AM +> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Mismatch of IDCT algorithms +> +> +> +> Dear MPEG-4 community, +> +> I am currently concerned with the accumulation of mismatch errors +> when repeatedly adding residual images during MPEG-4 video decoding. +> +> The MPEG-4 Visual standard (e.g. document N4350 ISO/IEC 14496-2) says +> that every macroblock is required to be 'intra' coded at least every +> 132 reference VOPs. +> But this requirement is somewhat hidden as 'Note 1' of the +> (normative) +> 'Appendix A'. +> And the MoMuSys reference codec seems to ignore this rule too. +> +> I understand that IEEE 1180-1990 demands a limitation of the +> number of +> residuals that may be added even with a conform IDCT. And our tests +> show, that violation of this can cause a severe degradation in image +> quality if encoder and decoder use different (but conform) IDCT +> algorithms. +> +> So there are my questions : +> 1.) To which extend is the intra refresh every 132 frames required ? +> 2.) Can an MPEG-4 bitstream exceeding the 132-refresh-rule +> actually be +> valid ? +> 3.) Does the MoMoSys reference codec really ignore this refresh, +> and if so, why ? +> +> Thanks in advance and +> Best regards, +> +> Christoph Stadler +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jan 21 13:41:28 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:33 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF5D7@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From knkneib knk-mpeg.com Mon Jan 21 15:22:32 2002 From: knkneib knk-mpeg.com (Kristine N. Kneib, Ph.D.) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Mismatch of IDCT algorithms In-Reply-To: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B66993@red-msg-02.redmon d.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020121145519.00ac0110@pop3.norton.antivirus> Good Afternoon Gary and Christoph and MPEG4 Colleagues, This IDCT mismatch condition of intra refresh every 132 MBs is a piece of ancient history (harking back to 1984/5 and H.320/H.261 standards development days). H.263 has compliance requirements with H.261 and MPEG4 has H.263 as a subset. So, old "Grandaddy" H.261 and its compliance is still in play in the latest and greatest MPEG4 video coding. The original IDCT mismatch specs of H.261 defined 9 tests and their results. These have been enhanced and refined - sometimes very subtlely - over time through MPEG-1, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4. The particular one that is referenced here reflects into the numerical accuracies in the data word lengths in the multiplier for the IDCT for 8-bit video. Some sequences will catastrophically fail if this is not met. I firmly agree with Gary's answers to the first two points. Best regards from a long-time H-DOT and MPEG product activist! Kristine Kneib KNK Seminars & Strategies Making MPEG Work for You www.knk-mpeg.com At 12:02 PM 1/21/02 -0800, you wrote: >Christoph, > >Klaus Diepold was also discussing IDCT mismatch problems recently. >You might want to check with him. > >+> 1.) To which extend is the intra refresh every 132 frames required ? > >I believe it is required. > >+> 2.) Can an MPEG-4 bitstream exceeding the 132-refresh-rule actually >be >+> valid ? > >I believe the answer is No. > >+> 3.) Does the MoMoSys reference codec really ignore this refresh, >+> and if so, why ? > >I don't know. Could be a bug. > >Best Regards, > >Gary Sullivan > >+> -----Original Message----- >+> From: Christoph Stadler [mailto:Christoph.Stadler@dynapel.de] >+> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2024 7:40 AM >+> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org >+> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Mismatch of IDCT algorithms >+> >+> >+> >+> Dear MPEG-4 community, >+> >+> I am currently concerned with the accumulation of mismatch errors >+> when repeatedly adding residual images during MPEG-4 video decoding. >+> >+> The MPEG-4 Visual standard (e.g. document N4350 ISO/IEC 14496-2) says >+> that every macroblock is required to be 'intra' coded at least every >+> 132 reference VOPs. >+> But this requirement is somewhat hidden as 'Note 1' of the >+> (normative) >+> 'Appendix A'. >+> And the MoMuSys reference codec seems to ignore this rule too. >+> >+> I understand that IEEE 1180-1990 demands a limitation of the >+> number of >+> residuals that may be added even with a conform IDCT. And our tests >+> show, that violation of this can cause a severe degradation in image >+> quality if encoder and decoder use different (but conform) IDCT >+> algorithms. >+> >+> So there are my questions : >+> 1.) To which extend is the intra refresh every 132 frames required ? >+> 2.) Can an MPEG-4 bitstream exceeding the 132-refresh-rule >+> actually be >+> valid ? >+> 3.) Does the MoMoSys reference codec really ignore this refresh, >+> and if so, why ? >+> >+> Thanks in advance and >+> Best regards, >+> >+> Christoph Stadler >+> _______________________________________________ >+> Technotes mailing list >+> Technotes@lists.m4if.org >+> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes >+> >_______________________________________________ >Technotes mailing list >Technotes@lists.m4if.org >http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kristine N. Kneib, Ph.D. - KNK Seminars & Strategies Making MPEG Work for You! 6333 La Jolla Blvd., Ste. 376 - La Jolla - CA 92037-6622 Tel: 858-459-8058 - Fax: 858-459-3654 www.knk-mpeg.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020121/b862e463/attachment.html From laur itcnetworks.ro Tue Jan 22 12:54:07 2002 From: laur itcnetworks.ro (Laurentiu Grigoriu) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models References: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC040EF5D7@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3C4D44CF.1CC07732@itcnetworks.ro> > Yes, if the MPEG committee found a strong need to add some new capability,more motion types could be added in amendments. However, existing decoders wouldnot be able to decode streams coded with > the new features. This is true for every extension of the standard with a new object type, right ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020122/fed79771/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jan 22 12:04:48 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] segment representation models Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187403@exchange.epr.com> Laurentiu, > Yes, if the MPEG committee found a strong need to add some new capability, > more motion types could be added in amendments. However, existing decoders > wouldnot be able to decode streams coded with the new features. This is true for every extension of the standard with a new object type, right ? Yes. And it also indicates that MPEG is *very* careful adding new stuff. New things have to bring *major* improvements. At this point, when we are talking about MPEG Video coding, new proposals are entertained in the context of the Joint Video Team, the cooperation of ITU-T and MPEG for the next-generation Video Coding Standard. See: http://mpeg.telecomitalialab.com/pattaya/pattaya_press.htm and http://mpeg.telecomitalialab.com/sydney/sydney_press.htm With this mail, I want to close this discussion. If there are further questions on the issue, please send them to me exclusively. Best, Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020122/f06cfb51/attachment.html From ben interframemedia.com Wed Jan 23 14:54:06 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Message-ID: Hello, The relevant document doesn't seem to be up on the web site any longer, so I thought I'd ask here. Which Profiles/Levels of Visual don't support B-frames? I have it in my head that Simple doesn't, in at least some cases, but am fuzzy on the details. Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding From rkoenen intertrust.com Wed Jan 23 15:03:11 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591874A5@exchange.epr.com> > Which Profiles/Levels of Visual don't support B-frames? Simple, Advanced Real-Time Simple (ARTS) don't hae it ( and Simple Studio and Core Studio on the high end. ) Whether or not B frames are supported is exclusively determined by the Profile. Within the Profile, the level definition doesn't change it. > I have it in my > head that Simple doesn't, in at least some cases, but am fuzzy on the > details. http://www.m4if.org/resources/profiles/index.html gives some info, but not all the Profile details, I now realize. We'll try to update. Rob From ben interframemedia.com Wed Jan 23 15:20:32 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591874A5@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: Rob, Thanks. I'm looking at a ton of encoders, and most of them aren't at all clear as to what profile their output is compatible with. And the various players aren't any better about documenting what profiles they actually support. Clearly, interoperability between players and encoders from different vendors isn't right now, but it's very hard right now to tell if this is the fault of the encoders or the players (I'm guessing it's mainly the players). For example, it looks like the Philips WebCine Encoder is Simple or better, unless you have B-frames, in which case it requires Advanced Simple or better. But the Philips WebCine Player can't play other Simple or Advanced Simple content produced by other encoders. Are there any kind of validation apps I can run on an .mp4 file that can tell me what it needs to run? Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding on 1/23/02 3:03 PM, Rob Koenen at rkoenen@intertrust.com wrote: > Simple, Advanced Real-Time Simple (ARTS) don't hae it > ( and Simple Studio and Core Studio on the high end. ) > > Whether or not B frames are supported is exclusively determined by > the Profile. Within the Profile, the level definition doesn't > change it. From rkoenen intertrust.com Wed Jan 23 15:51:42 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591874B2@exchange.epr.com> Ben, There was some chaos but it is rapdily decreasing. Over 20 companies have done (and are doing) interop testing in M4IF, and we are doing these by the Profile, concentrating on Simple and Advanced Simple. I cannot comment on individual companies (I will gladly leave that to their representatives) but I do know that the behavior you have observed is disappearing. I thought this was also the case for the exampe that you mention. Profiles and Levels define decoder requirements - the lower bounds, that is. Implicitly, they also define upper bounds onwhat the encoder can spit out. We are migrating from a situation in which people just stated "I am doing MPEG-4" (and they didn't have a clue about Profiles and Levels) to one in which people say "I am doing MPEG-4 X profile at Y Level." (and sometimes they add "oh, by the way, my encoder doesn't do tool Z yet, but it will be done next month"). ISMA helps, having picked concrete Advanced Simple Profile from the MPEG-4 spec for its own 1.0 spec. M4IF will help further by designing a process of (self) certification. The MPEG-4 syntax contains info on Profiles and Levels, but I am not aware of any tools, except for the Video analysis tools of Interra, http://www.interra.tv/products/Mpeg4_analysis.htm (If listeners know of other such tools please let us know) Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Waggoner [mailto:ben@interframemedia.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2024 15:21 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? > > > Rob, > > Thanks. > > I'm looking at a ton of encoders, and most of them aren't > at all clear > as to what profile their output is compatible with. And the > various players > aren't any better about documenting what profiles they > actually support. > Clearly, interoperability between players and encoders from different > vendors isn't right now, but it's very hard right now to tell > if this is the > fault of the encoders or the players (I'm guessing it's > mainly the players). > > For example, it looks like the Philips WebCine Encoder is > Simple or > better, unless you have B-frames, in which case it requires > Advanced Simple > or better. But the Philips WebCine Player can't play other Simple or > Advanced Simple content produced by other encoders. > > Are there any kind of validation apps I can run on an > .mp4 file that can > tell me what it needs to run? > > Ben Waggoner > Interframe Media > Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding > > > > on 1/23/02 3:03 PM, Rob Koenen at rkoenen@intertrust.com wrote: > > Simple, Advanced Real-Time Simple (ARTS) don't hae it > > ( and Simple Studio and Core Studio on the high end. ) > > > > Whether or not B frames are supported is exclusively determined by > > the Profile. Within the Profile, the level definition doesn't > > change it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From ben interframemedia.com Wed Jan 23 16:15:25 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591874B2@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: Rob, Yeah, I didn't mean to sound overly pessimistic. Most of what I'm testing is unreleased tools, obviously, so there is still time to get the issues ironed out. Overall, the problems seem to be in the players more than the encoded content. For stuff that should work, the problems tend the be the video not playing in the right part of the window, oddly enough, like the entire frame being shifted up 32 pixels up and to the left. It does work seamlessly in many cases, too. It was pretty magical to see a bitstream from one unreleased tool work in an unreleased player from another vendor. I think an important step for players will be to do some kind of validation on the source to make sure they can play it, and give some kind of warning if it is out of profile for them. A lot of stuff is going to get assigned to the .mp4 extension, with different requirements. Anything happening with including a profile descriptor in a MIME type so that web-based content could be more accurately steered to an appropriate player? Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding on 1/23/02 3:51 PM, Rob Koenen at rkoenen@intertrust.com wrote: > There was some chaos but it is rapdily decreasing. > Over 20 companies have done (and are doing) interop testing > in M4IF, and we are doing these by the Profile, concentrating on > Simple and Advanced Simple. > > I cannot comment on individual companies (I will gladly leave that > to their representatives) but I do know that the behavior you > have observed is disappearing. I thought this was also the case > for the exampe that you mention. > > Profiles and Levels define decoder requirements - the lower bounds, > that is. Implicitly, they also define upper bounds onwhat the > encoder can spit out. > > We are migrating from a situation in which people just stated "I am > doing MPEG-4" (and they didn't have a clue about Profiles and Levels) > to one in which people say "I am doing MPEG-4 X profile at Y Level." > (and sometimes they add "oh, by the way, my encoder doesn't do tool Z > yet, but it will be done next month"). > > ISMA helps, having picked concrete Advanced Simple Profile from the > MPEG-4 spec for its own 1.0 spec. > > M4IF will help further by designing a process of (self) certification. > The MPEG-4 syntax contains info on Profiles and Levels, but I am not > aware of any tools, except for the Video analysis tools of Interra, > http://www.interra.tv/products/Mpeg4_analysis.htm From Peter.Haighton m4if.org Thu Jan 24 09:54:47 2002 From: Peter.Haighton m4if.org (Peter Haighton) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Ben, There is a new document on the M4IF website that describes what can be used with some of the more popular profiles. This should help you figure out what can be used in your testing. The page is http://www.m4if.org/resources/profiles/visualtools.html Hope this helps. Peter -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Ben Waggoner Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2024 5:54 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Hello, The relevant document doesn't seem to be up on the web site any longer, so I thought I'd ask here. Which Profiles/Levels of Visual don't support B-frames? I have it in my head that Simple doesn't, in at least some cases, but am fuzzy on the details. Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jan 24 17:03:06 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0F19@exchange.epr.com> > Anything happening with including a profile descriptor in a MIME type so > that web-based content could be more accurately steered to an appropriate > player? That's all in the Initial Object Descriptors, and MP4 files support those. Also the Visual and AUdio streams themselves can contain this information. Furthermore, there is a profile_and_level_indication field in the Visual bitstream (and also in the AUdio bitstream) Rob From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jan 24 17:03:15 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:34 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] YUV sequence copyrights Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0F28@exchange.epr.com> Late answer. The sequences can be used for standards devcelopment in MPEG. They cannot necessariliy be used beyond that. To find out, you would need to contact individual copyright owners. We have some sequences that are cleared for use within M4IF that you could use though; we are using them for interoperability testing. You should be able to use these if it is not for commercial purposes. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Jani Huoponen [mailto:Jani.Huoponen@hantro.com] > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2024 2:03 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] YUV sequence copyrights > > > Hi, > > There was some discussion about video material copyrights in the M4IF > interoperability mailing list some time ago, but does anyone > know what is > the copyright status of the widely used foreman, container, > news, etc. YUV > secuences? In my understanding they are allowed to be used at > least for > research and standardization purposes, is that right? Who owns the > copyrights for these sequences? Are there special limitations > for the usage? > > BR, Jani > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From ben interframemedia.com Thu Jan 24 17:25:30 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D590B0F19@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: Rob, Right. But by the time a player is looking at that, it's already been handed the .mp4 file by the browser or the OS. It doesn't provide any mechanism in advance to route the file to a compatible player. I'm foreseeing a circumstance where different players support different profiles/levels. Unless the user has one player that is a full superset of all the other available players, they're going to get some .mp4 files played in the wrong app. Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding on 1/24/02 5:03 PM, Rob Koenen at rkoenen@intertrust.com wrote: >> Anything happening with including a profile descriptor in a MIME type > so >> that web-based content could be more accurately steered to an appropriate >> player? > > That's all in the Initial Object Descriptors, and MP4 files > support those. Also the Visual and AUdio streams themselves > can contain this information. > > Furthermore, there is a profile_and_level_indication field in > the Visual bitstream (and also in the AUdio bitstream) From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jan 24 22:19:07 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D591874DD@exchange.epr.com> This issue is common to compound file formats, that can have a variety of coded bitstreams. The MPEG-4 player of a user's choice can load the decoders that it finds indicated in the bitstream. But I do see the issue. The Digital Item Declaration in MPEG-21 will help, but it is not ready yet (although it is getting quite close). This is an XML-based description of what a piece of content is composed of, including coding types, alternative representations of the same content and the place where the actual resources is to be found. Best, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Waggoner [mailto:ben@interframemedia.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2024 17:26 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] B-frames in Simple? Which Levels? > > > Rob, > > Right. But by the time a player is looking at that, it's > already been > handed the .mp4 file by the browser or the OS. It doesn't provide any > mechanism in advance to route the file to a compatible player. > > I'm foreseeing a circumstance where different players > support different > profiles/levels. Unless the user has one player that is a > full superset of > all the other available players, they're going to get some > .mp4 files played > in the wrong app. > > > Ben Waggoner > Interframe Media > Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding > > > > on 1/24/02 5:03 PM, Rob Koenen at rkoenen@intertrust.com wrote: > > >> Anything happening with including a profile descriptor > in a MIME type > > so > >> that web-based content could be more accurately steered to > an appropriate > >> player? > > > > That's all in the Initial Object Descriptors, and MP4 files > > support those. Also the Visual and AUdio streams themselves > > can contain this information. > > > > Furthermore, there is a profile_and_level_indication field in > > the Visual bitstream (and also in the AUdio bitstream) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From YDAMBIELLE aol.com Fri Jan 25 15:13:42 2002 From: YDAMBIELLE aol.com (YDAMBIELLE@aol.com) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Problem with MPEG-4 : mulplexing the datas with FLEXMUX + TCRTP Message-ID: <57.578307e.29831676@aol.com> Hello, My name is Yannick DAMBIELLE, I'm a french engineer studient and I'm doing a paper about MPEG-4 and the multimedia. My problem is about using FLEXMUX and TCRTP for multiplexing the datas. With FLEXMUX or TRCTP, I can send less packets on the network by multiplexing theim, in both case I can choose the number of packets I want to multiplex. If I only use FLEXMUX, I will choose the number of SL-PDU packets I want to to multiplex and I will also control each SL-PDU paquets in the multiplexed packet. I can choose to insert packet A and not packet B in the multiplexed solution...But whatever I do, I will always have a 40 bytes overhead for each paquets due to the [IP/UDP/RTP] encapsulation. If I only use TCRTP, I can multiplex a certain number of [IP/UDP/RTP] packets, but I can't choose the packets I want to mulplex. With the compression algorithm, I will reduce the 40 bytes overhead of the [IP/UDP/RTP] packet to 2 bytes. Whatever the size of my TCRTP packet is, I will always have at less 20 bytes for the IP header and at less 4 bytes for each [IP/UDP/RTP] paquets multiplexed (1 byte for the TYPE =CR, 1 byte for LEN, 2 bytes for the [IP/UDP/RTP] compression of each packets). For 10 [IP/UDP/RTP] packets multiplexed, the overhead of a TCRTP packet will be 60 bytes (20+10*4) against 400 bytes with 10 [IP/UDP/RTP]. CRTP algorithm is very sensitive to lost packets. If a packet is lost, a complete [IP/UDP/RTP] header has to be sent and also of course a certain number of SL-PDU lost. So I considere that it could be better to have a not so big TCRTP packet... By multiplexing some IP packets, I will multiplex some SL-PDU paquets inserted in. If I use FLEXMUX+TCRTP : with FLEXMUX I control the number of SL-PDU packets multiplexed and also witch packet will be multplexed. CRTP permit me to reduce the [IP/UDP/RTP] header of each paquet multiplexed before. My TCRTP packet will always have 24 bytes overhead if I don't multiplex more than 1 [IP/UDP/RTP] packet. And not multplexing more than 1 [IP/UDP/RTP] packet seems to be better in case of lost TCRTP packet. I think that that using FLEXMUX+TCRTP could be better than FLEXMUX alone or TCRTP alone. I would like to know your opinion about using FLEXMUX+TCRTP. I'm waiting for your anwser. Best regards, Yannick DAMBIELLE PS: I apologize for my poor english. From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jan 25 14:39:04 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] FW: [mpeg4] Re: What stuff would you like to see in a codec revie w Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59187535@exchange.epr.com> An interesting question that came up on a different list. Please reply to author with copy to me if you have anything to respond. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Ben Waggoner [mailto:ben@interframemedia.com] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2024 12:05 To: Streaming Media MPEG-4 Subject: [mpeg4] Re: What stuff would you like to see in a codec review Amir, To that end, do you know of any players that actually support the full Advanced Simple profile at any level? The player documentation tends to be very vague about what they can actually do. Ben Waggoner Interframe Media Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding on 1/24/02 8:58 AM, Amir Majidimehr at amirm@microsoft.com wrote: > 2. There are various profiles in MPEG-4 such as Simple and Advanced > Profiles. Seeing the *relative* difference in CPU usage on the same > architecture/player (i.e. X86) would give us fair amount of insight as > to the required additional hardware resources for these modes. Of > course, this would not tell you everything, but if all the players run > 2X slower compared to Simple profile, that would tell you something > about the complexity of Advanced Simple -- whether it runs on X86 or > not. From rajesh emuzed.com Sun Jan 27 12:26:03 2002 From: rajesh emuzed.com (Rajesh Rajagopalan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ASP decoder all levels Message-ID: Ben and Rob, Emuzed has a PC based player that supports ASP at all levels. Best, Rajesh ---------------------------------------- Rajesh Rajagopalan, Ph.D. Chief Technology Officer, Emuzed Inc. www.emuzed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Koenen" To: "M4IF Technotes (E-mail)" ; "mpeg-video (E-mail)" Cc: "Ben Waggoner (E-mail)" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2024 4:09 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] FW: [mpeg4] Re: What stuff would you like to see in a codec revie w > An interesting question that came up on a different list. > Please reply to author with copy to me if you have anything > to respond. > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Waggoner [mailto:ben@interframemedia.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2024 12:05 > To: Streaming Media MPEG-4 > Subject: [mpeg4] Re: What stuff would you like to see in a codec review > > > Amir, > > To that end, do you know of any players that actually support the full > Advanced Simple profile at any level? The player documentation tends to be > very vague about what they can actually do. > > Ben Waggoner > Interframe Media > Digital Video Compression Consulting, Training, and Encoding > > From gchandra tataelxsi.co.in Wed Jan 30 10:25:04 2002 From: gchandra tataelxsi.co.in (Chandra Sekhar Reddy G) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4-video : MB-Quant vs 4MV Message-ID: <000d01c1a94a$480c1530$cc14010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Hi All, The Mpeg4-Video-Standard prohibits Quant and 4MV to be present in the same Macroblock. There may be some cases, where this will be useful. e.g.., in the encoder, 1. when we do MB-level bit-rate-control, we may need to send Quant, if we do that, we can not go for 4MV. 2. we may have decided to go for 4MV for that macroblock, if we do that, we can not do MB-level bit-rate/quality control (by changing Quant). that means, you have to only one tool, either "MB-level bit-rate/quality control" or "4MV ". Why such restriction in the standard? I think, that choice should have been left for the intelligence of the Encoder. Regards, Chandra From cychoon hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 16:56:47 2002 From: cychoon hotmail.com (Chang Yoong Choon) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Microsoft Reference software Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020130/09c84255/attachment.html From ramki emuzed.com Wed Jan 30 18:33:19 2002 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4-video : MB-Quant vs 4MV References: <000d01c1a94a$480c1530$cc14010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Message-ID: <05b201c1a98e$82f41910$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Hi, This is done to save the bits in sending the dquant info when 4 MV is used as more bits are required to code motion vectors in this case. regards, ramkishor Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Sekhar Reddy G" To: "M4IF TechNotes" Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2024 10:25 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4-video : MB-Quant vs 4MV > Hi All, > > The Mpeg4-Video-Standard prohibits Quant and 4MV to be present in the same > Macroblock. > There may be some cases, where this will be useful. > > e.g.., in the encoder, > 1. when we do MB-level bit-rate-control, we may need to send Quant, if we do > that, we can not go for 4MV. > 2. we may have decided to go for 4MV for that macroblock, if we do that, we > can not do MB-level bit-rate/quality control (by changing Quant). > that means, you have to only one tool, either "MB-level bit-rate/quality > control" or "4MV ". > > Why such restriction in the standard? > I think, that choice should have been left for the intelligence of the > Encoder. > > Regards, > Chandra > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > From i.g.richardson rgu.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 15:36:46 2002 From: i.g.richardson rgu.ac.uk (Iain Richardson (ensigr)) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Objects in Simple Profile / Visual Message-ID: <9B4C0CE0F5BE4E4F83226707BFA0D1B42D06BE@EXVS001.rgu.ac.uk> Hello Annex N of MPEG-4 Visual (amend. 1) states that a Simple Profile stream can contain up to 4 objects; however, the Simple profile doesn't include the shape coding tools and my understanding was that Simple Profile encoders dealt with complete video frames. I'm interested in finding out how/why a Simple Profile encoder can support multiple objects. Many thanks Iain Richardson i.g.richardson@rgu.ac.uk Scotland, UK -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4026 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020130/0028448f/attachment.bin From fp lx.it.pt Wed Jan 30 16:30:31 2002 From: fp lx.it.pt (Fernando Pereira) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Objects in Simple Profile / Visual References: <9B4C0CE0F5BE4E4F83226707BFA0D1B42D06BE@EXVS001.rgu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3C581FA7.3A038C72@lx.it.pt> Hi ! "Iain Richardson (ensigr)" wrote: > > Hello > > Annex N of MPEG-4 Visual (amend. 1) states that a Simple Profile stream > can contain up to 4 objects; however, the Simple profile doesn't include > the shape coding tools and my understanding was that Simple Profile > encoders dealt with complete video frames. I'm interested in finding out > how/why a Simple Profile encoder can support multiple objects. The objects are rectangular so no need dor shape coding. To compose the various objects in the scene you will need MPEG-4 Systems tools like BIFS. Regards Fernando -- Fernando Manuel Bernardo Pereira, Ph.D., Professor Instituto Superior T?cnico - Instituto de Telecomunica??es Av. Rovisco Pais, 1049-001 Lisboa, PORTUGAL Phone: + 351 21 8418460 Fax: + 351 21 8418472 E-mail: Fernando.Pereira@lx.it.pt WWW: http://www.img.lx.it.pt/~fp/ From garysull microsoft.com Wed Jan 30 12:45:18 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4-video : MB-Quant vs 4MV Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B66AD7@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> I think Sekhar's description is correct. I believe there is this restriction. This was probably not a great design choice. -Gary +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Chandra Sekhar Reddy G [mailto:gchandra@tataelxsi.co.in] +> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2024 8:55 PM +> To: M4IF TechNotes +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mpeg4-video : MB-Quant vs 4MV +> +> +> Hi All, +> +> The Mpeg4-Video-Standard prohibits Quant and 4MV to be +> present in the same +> Macroblock. +> There may be some cases, where this will be useful. +> +> e.g.., in the encoder, +> 1. when we do MB-level bit-rate-control, we may need to send +> Quant, if we do +> that, we can not go for 4MV. +> 2. we may have decided to go for 4MV for that macroblock, if +> we do that, we +> can not do MB-level bit-rate/quality control (by changing Quant). +> that means, you have to only one tool, either "MB-level +> bit-rate/quality +> control" or "4MV ". +> +> Why such restriction in the standard? +> I think, that choice should have been left for the +> intelligence of the +> Encoder. +> +> Regards, +> Chandra +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From prabhuhosur hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 21:45:38 2002 From: prabhuhosur hotmail.com (Prabhudev Hosur) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Objects in Simple Profile / Visual Message-ID: As far as I understand, simple profile supports 4 rectngular video objects, which can be rendered in the way it is desired at the receiver by making use of the system layer information. -Prabhu >From: "Iain Richardson (ensigr)" >To: >Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Objects in Simple Profile / Visual >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2024 15:36:46 -0000 > >Hello > >Annex N of MPEG-4 Visual (amend. 1) states that a Simple Profile stream >can contain up to 4 objects; however, the Simple profile doesn't include >the shape coding tools and my understanding was that Simple Profile >encoders dealt with complete video frames. I'm interested in finding out >how/why a Simple Profile encoder can support multiple objects. > >Many thanks > >Iain Richardson >i.g.richardson@rgu.ac.uk >Scotland, UK > > > ><< winmail.dat >> _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From wchang nist.gov Thu Jan 31 14:28:33 2002 From: wchang nist.gov (Wo Chang) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:07:35 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] one simple question Message-ID: <040c01c1aa8d$78c9db50$361a0681@dell8k> Dear All, One simple question: When counting frame in MPEG-1/-2/-4 video clip, do we (MPEG'ers) use "0" or "1" base when counting the very first frame? I came across materials using "1" as the starting frame but that may not be the MPEG's convention. The reason why I asked this is, let's say you have a group of collaborators reviewing shots. We will need to establish what is the first frame called: frame 0 or frame 1, so that at a later time, if we say "look at frame 928", then we all will look at the exact frame. I just want to know, how do MPEG'ers normally count the frame, do you count the very first frame as frame "0" or frame "1". Thanks! --Wo