From biswas tataelxsi.co.in Mon Jun 3 17:20:00 2002 From: biswas tataelxsi.co.in (Biswajit Biswas) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:08 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Audio References: <72263E8E8622D611975C0002B32C19D837E931@misty.packetvideo.com> Message-ID: <3CFB49D8.A0B7DF2D@tataelxsi.co.in> Hi Arcin, If you want to stream GSM-AMR speech along with MPEG4 video (simple profile), you can use ASF (Microsoft) format for streaming. regards Biswajit Ralph Neff wrote: > > Hi Arcin, > > MPEG-4 doesn't currently include AMR in any of its > specifications. If you're coming from the MPEG-4 world > and you want to stream speech, you'd use MPEG-4 CELP. > (This is what you'd find if you picked up the ISMA spec, > for example). > > If you're interested in streaming AMR along with MPEG-4 > visual, for example, you should take a look at the 3GPP > Packet-Switched Streaming specification. This describes > audio/visual streaming over wireless (e.g. UMTS) > connections. 3GPP has for example defined extensions to > allow AMR and H.263 tracks to be included in an MP4 file. > The streaming itself is based on the various IETF payload > formats (so AMR isn't "in an MPEG-4 stream" as you posed > in your question). > > -Ralph > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arcin Bozkurt [mailto:arcin@atsana.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 10:59 AM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Audio > > Can GSM-AMR be transmitted in an MPEG-4 stream? > > Does have to be MPEG-4 Celp that has to be transmitted? > > -arcin > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jun 3 06:08:35 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (video_object_layer_width / height) not a mu ltiple of 16 Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B672DA@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Response below in line: +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Robert Beattie [mailto:r.beattie@indigovision.com] +> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 4:42 AM +> To: 'Biju Ravindran'; 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' +> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] (video_object_layer_width / +> height) not a mu ltiple of 16 +> +> +> > If we do motion estimation on outside the boundary +> > after extending the edge pels, it can give a match +> > which will result in reduced bit rate. So there is no +> > need of restricting the motion vector if the edge pels +> > are copied outside the effective area. +> +> +> This is true Biju. What I am saying is that edge pels should +> be extended +> from line 241 rather than line 255 for the image resolution +> described. No. +> +> My understanding of the standard is that the decoder can not +> treat a 352x256 +> and 352x242 in the same way when extending the boundary. That is not the right interpretation. There is no difference between the decoding process for a 352x256 image and and for a 352x242 image (assuming no shape coding is used). The only difference is that the final output of the decoding process is cropped before being sent to the (non- normative) display. Any motion compensation over picture boundaries operates across the bottom edge by extrapolating row 255 in both cases, not row 241. The padding process is based on the bounding rectangle (at least in the absence of shape coding). The bounding rectangle is the vop_width and vop_height extended to each be a multiple of 16. The vop_width and vop_height do not affect the decoding process except to determine how many macroblocks to decode. You are not the only one who has been tripped up by the way this is specified. It should have been stated more clearly. (I think this is already listed in the MPEG problem report list, but I'll try to submit it to the next meeting to make sure.) +> +> I have a concern with this as our (vhdl / fpga) decoder +> successfully passed +> the compliance tests even though it did not (in my +> understanding) support +> this case correctly. Perhaps the conformance test streams did not test this case. +> +> This being the case is the coverage of the conformance streams really +> adequate ? There are several other similar cases which cause +> me concern. I +> would be interested if anyone else has found possible holes in the +> conformance tests ? The conformance tests are not claimed to be exhaustive. They are simply the best that people managed to volunteer to contribute. Best Regards, Gary Sullivan +> +> Your's waiting to be corrected, +> +> Dr Rob Beattie +> Indigo +> +> +> +> +> The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the +> addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or +> responsible for +> delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us +> immediately on the above detailed phone number and delete +> the message from +> your computer: you may not copy or forward this e-mail, or +> use or disclose +> its contents to any other person. We thank you in +> anticipation for your +> assistance. As internet communications are capable of data +> corruption no +> responsibility is accepted for changes made to this message +> after it was +> sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on information +> contained in this e-mail without obtaining written +> confirmation of it. In +> addition, no liability or responsibility is accepted for +> viruses and it is +> your responsibility to scan any attachments to this e-mail. +> Nothing in this +> e-mail shall constitute or be construed as constituting an +> offer, obligation +> or an acceptance of any offer previously made. Opinions, +> comments and other +> information in this e-mail that do not relate to the business of +> IndigoVision Group plc, IndigoVision Limited and/or +> IndigoVision, Inc. shall +> be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the companies +> or any of them. +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From r.beattie indigovision.com Mon Jun 3 15:17:55 2002 From: r.beattie indigovision.com (Robert Beattie) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (video_object_layer_width / height) not a mu ltiple of 16 Message-ID: <1F3071585480D5118B8E00B0D0AA311406AFAB@ThisAddressDoesNotExist> > > You are not the only one who has been tripped up by > the way this is specified. It should have been stated > more clearly. (I think this is already listed in the > MPEG problem report list, but I'll try to submit it > to the next meeting to make sure.) > Can you clear this up for me. I am looking at section 7.6.1 of the standard (and the picture) shows the repetitive / extended padding process being applied to the "decoded" data in the framestore. Section 7.6.4 refers to data in the unrestricted case being padded as per 7.6.1. which as far as I can understand it implies padding from line 241 in the decoder. That is the "decoded" data. Dose extended padding from line 255 not imply that the data from 242 - 255 is already padded prior to encoding ? I cant find this anywhere in the standard. Where am I going wrong ? Can you point me to the appropriate section ? Sorry for taking up valuable time but I would like to get this clear. Thank's in advance, Dr Rob Beattie The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on the above detailed phone number and delete the message from your computer: you may not copy or forward this e-mail, or use or disclose its contents to any other person. We thank you in anticipation for your assistance. As internet communications are capable of data corruption no responsibility is accepted for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on information contained in this e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. In addition, no liability or responsibility is accepted for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan any attachments to this e-mail. Nothing in this e-mail shall constitute or be construed as constituting an offer, obligation or an acceptance of any offer previously made. Opinions, comments and other information in this e-mail that do not relate to the business of IndigoVision Group plc, IndigoVision Limited and/or IndigoVision, Inc. shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the companies or any of them. From r.beattie indigovision.com Mon Jun 3 15:45:48 2002 From: r.beattie indigovision.com (Robert Beattie) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (video_object_layer_width / height) not a mu ltiple of 16 Message-ID: <1F3071585480D5118B8E00B0D0AA311406AFAD@ThisAddressDoesNotExist> Oops sorry I think I just answered my own question. I kind of assumed that the repetitive ( not just extended) padding process would be applied to both rectangular and non rectangular VOP's but I take it that this is not the case ? Sorry about that. I just king of assumed that the data between lines 242 and 255 would be padded by repetitive padding. Oh dear, Thank's anyway Dr Rob Beattie The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on the above detailed phone number and delete the message from your computer: you may not copy or forward this e-mail, or use or disclose its contents to any other person. We thank you in anticipation for your assistance. As internet communications are capable of data corruption no responsibility is accepted for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on information contained in this e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. In addition, no liability or responsibility is accepted for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan any attachments to this e-mail. Nothing in this e-mail shall constitute or be construed as constituting an offer, obligation or an acceptance of any offer previously made. Opinions, comments and other information in this e-mail that do not relate to the business of IndigoVision Group plc, IndigoVision Limited and/or IndigoVision, Inc. shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the companies or any of them. From srq ieee.org Mon Jun 3 12:23:53 2002 From: srq ieee.org (S. R. Quackenbush) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Audio In-Reply-To: <1022781526.19673.1.camel@thunderbird> Message-ID: Dear Arcin, There is also the possibility that AMR can be signalled as a "non-MPEG" stream via a 3rd party registration authority (which will assign it an ID number). Please see N3793 (at the end): "Since the Adaptive MultiRate (AMR-WB) coder has been standardized by 3GPP (and may be standardized by ITU-T), investigate means to register AMR-WB for signaling in MPEG-4 systems." And also the last resolution of the 55th MPEG meeting (Pisa) Audio resolutions "1.1.11 that ISO start a registration authority for MPEG-4 Format Identifier" Best Regards, Schuyler --- Schuyler Quackenbush Chair, MPEG Audio Subgroup srq@ieee.org http://www.srqinfo.com > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Arcin Bozkurt > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 10:59 AM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Audio > > > > Can GSM-AMR be transmitted in an MPEG-4 stream? > > Does have to be MPEG-4 Celp that has to be transmitted? > > -arcin > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From priti artlover.com Mon Jun 3 18:23:04 2002 From: priti artlover.com (Priti Patil) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Simple profile ? Message-ID: <3CFBDE38.A203D1D3@artlover.com> Hello, I'm going through the archive for answering some questions I have and here is the context... -----Original Message----- Hi Gigi, Visual Simple Profile isn't identical to H.263 baseline, but there is a subset (called "short header mode") that is the same. So if you have an MPEG-4 Simple Profile decoder, you should be able to decode an H.263 baseline bitstream (minor header conversion may be needed, but it's easy). In general, a Simple Profile Bitstream won't work on an H.263 decoder, unless it's specifically restricted to short header mode. -Ralph ----------------------------------- Now, here are my questions: 1. Why would a simple profile bitstream with short header work with a H.263 decoder? My understanding is that the simple profile bitstream would still contain VOSheaders, VOL and VOP data before the VO bitstream starts with its short header... So how would an H.263 decoder be able to understand all that data? Also, based on following link, even the simple profile level 0 (this is the one with short header) would need some amount of transcoding to be played with H263 decoder. http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/S.Dogan/pubs/EMPS_1998.pdf 2. Where to get the short header conformance bit stream from? 3. Which publicly available players play the mp4v streams with simple profile level 0? 4. In quicktime, they have a way to store H.263 frames under stsd as 'h263' atom type. Is there any s/w available which would create such files? (so that older clients can play them) Thanks Priti From khuber sorenson.com Tue Jun 4 13:15:31 2002 From: khuber sorenson.com (Kris Huber) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Simple profile ? Message-ID: <70A238C106788B49A1B7B46C050DEDFE228E68@pandora.sorenson.com> Hello Priti, Here are answers to your questions according to my understanding: >1. Why would a simple profile bitstream with short header > work with a H.263 decoder?1. I would think that normally when a short header bitstreams are used, whether it has a VOS header will be system-dependent, but normally VO or VOL headers are not used when short header is used. My evidence for this is that there are a few short header conformance bitstreams in raw format that start right out with the short header, whereas most of the conformance bitstreams start out with a VO header. At least in some systems, it is as easy to skip VOS headers as VO and VOL headers (short header is an alternate-syntax VOP). I believe that the ability of an MPEG-4 decoder to decode a baseline H.263 may have been a requirement at some point. The reverse capabibility (MPEG-4 short header to H.263 baseline is of course enabled as well). As for the paper EMPS_1998.pdf, on transcoding from MPEG-4 to H.263, much of it deals with transcoding of more complex MPEG-4 bitstreams to H.263. If an MPEG-4 bitstream is coded in short header mode, then that is all you need to detect - it will be bit-for-bit compatible with H.263 baseline. Short header ensures also that only the H.263-compatible VLC table is used. The extra motion vector codeword in MPEG-4 mentioned in the paper is not used in short header mode. A footnote the ensures this was added to Table B-12 by corrigendum (but in fairness to the authors, this didn't happen until after their paper). The 1st and 65th codewords are redundant (-16 and +16 full-pels encode the same motion vector) when vop_fcode=1 due to VLC symbol aliasing, but for larger fcode values the 65th codeword is not redundant. It is needed to avoid an awkward dependence of the set of encodable motion vectors on the predicted motion vector; i.e., with the 65th codeword, not every motion vector in the search range would be encodable. >2. Where to get the short header conformance bit stream from? The version 1 bitstreams published by ISO include a few (vcon-ge16-L1.bits, vcon-ge16-L1.bits, vcon-ge16-L3.bits). All other H.263 baseline bitstreams also can be used to verify conformance. The MPEG-4 reference software should decode them and give you output to compare with. >3. Which publicly available players play the mp4v streams with > simple profile level 0? I suspect that most of them do, but don't know for sure. I'm quite sure our simple and advanced simple decoders understand Simple@L0, but some decoders may not because L0 was added after Simple L1-L3. >4. In quicktime, they have a way to store H.263 frames under > stsd as 'h263' atom type. Is there any s/w available which would > create such files? (so that older clients can play them) I'm sure there is. Although maybe the latest versions don't include it (I don't know for sure). Regards, Kris -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 17:23:04 -0400 From: Priti Patil Reply-To: priti@artlover.com Organization: CMG To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 Simple profile ? Hello, I'm going through the archive for answering some questions I have and here is the context... -----Original Message----- Hi Gigi, Visual Simple Profile isn't identical to H.263 baseline, but there is a subset (called "short header mode") that is the same. So if you have an MPEG-4 Simple Profile decoder, you should be able to decode an H.263 baseline bitstream (minor header conversion may be needed, but it's easy). In general, a Simple Profile Bitstream won't work on an H.263 decoder, unless it's specifically restricted to short header mode. -Ralph ----------------------------------- Now, here are my questions: 1. Why would a simple profile bitstream with short header work with a H.263 decoder? My understanding is that the simple profile bitstream would still contain VOSheaders, VOL and VOP data before the VO bitstream starts with its short header... So how would an H.263 decoder be able to understand all that data? Also, based on following link, even the simple profile level 0 (this is the one with short header) would need some amount of transcoding to be played with H263 decoder. http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/S.Dogan/pubs/EMPS_1998.pdf 2. Where to get the short header conformance bit stream from? 3. Which publicly available players play the mp4v streams with simple profile level 0? 4. In quicktime, they have a way to store H.263 frames under stsd as 'h263' atom type. Is there any s/w available which would create such files? (so that older clients can play them) Thanks Priti From kenny.chen intel.com Wed Jun 5 15:20:58 2002 From: kenny.chen intel.com (Chen, Kenny) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error pattern Message-ID: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26C923ED@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> Hi, Where can I find the code and document for different error pattern for different channel for error resilience Thanks Ken From RobertLang honestech.com Wed Jun 5 19:22:32 2002 From: RobertLang honestech.com (Bob Lang) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MP42/MP43 Question Message-ID: Dear Sir or Madam: Honest Technology has developed an MPEG-1 & -2 Encoder that it markets to both OEM's and consumers. Lately several of our customers have tried to encode files they thought were of an AVI format. Unfortunately when they tried, the Encoder reported that the files needed to be decoded with an MP42 or MP43 codec. Can you tell me what kind of file MP42 and MP43 are and where I can get the codec to return them to their original AVI format? Thank you in advance for your assistance. Bob Lang Sales Manager Honest Technology ---------------------------- RobertLang@honestech.com http://www.honestech.com 5001A West Lincoln Drive Marlton, NJ 08053 Tel: (856) 596-7575 Fax: (856) 596-0044 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1792 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020605/a83c1947/winmail.bin From krangam lsil.com Wed Jun 5 16:47:09 2002 From: krangam lsil.com (kasturi rangam) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] GMC concept Message-ID: <3CFE94ED.C2E6AC86@lsil.com> Hi, From rsaintjohn LIGOS.COM Wed Jun 5 17:17:58 2002 From: rsaintjohn LIGOS.COM (Robert Saint John) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MP42/MP43 Question Message-ID: <57E18E38364FCB47B409E3DD5AD527105B536F@SF-MAIL.ligos> Bob ~ These are (older) fourcc codes for two of Microsoft's beta codecs for Windows Media Tools : MP42: MPEG-4v2 (second version) codec for AVI files MP43: MPEG-4v3 (third version) for ASF files Don't confuse a codec (like MP42) with a file format (like AVI). Your customers will have to get the codecs from Microsoft, from http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia . I don't know if the codecs (including MP41) are still distributed with Windows Media Player or not. You may also want to refer them to http://www.moviecodec.com/codecdownload/msmpeg4.shtml for a detailed explanation of the "AVI vs ASF" question. Robert -- Robert W. Saint John - rsaintjohn@ligos.com Director of Technical Marketing Ligos Corporation - http://www.ligos.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Bob Lang [mailto:RobertLang@honestech.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2023 3:23 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MP42/MP43 Question Dear Sir or Madam: Honest Technology has developed an MPEG-1 & -2 Encoder that it markets to both OEM's and consumers. Lately several of our customers have tried to encode files they thought were of an AVI format. Unfortunately when they tried, the Encoder reported that the files needed to be decoded with an MP42 or MP43 codec. Can you tell me what kind of file MP42 and MP43 are and where I can get the codec to return them to their original AVI format? Thank you in advance for your assistance. Bob Lang Sales Manager Honest Technology ---------------------------- RobertLang@honestech.com http://www.honestech.com 5001A West Lincoln Drive Marlton, NJ 08053 Tel: (856) 596-7575 Fax: (856) 596-0044 From Luca.Celetto st.com Thu Jun 6 13:02:43 2002 From: Luca.Celetto st.com (Luca Celetto) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Short Headers and GOB Message-ID: <3CFF3343.4010508@st.com> From my interpretation of the MPEG-4 standard (document N4350) for what regards Short Header modality (section 6.2.5.2, "Video Plane with Short Header") it seems to me that putting GOB marker in the bitstream is compulsory and a stream without GOBs is not correct (however, this interpretation reduces the compatibility between MPEG-4 and H.263). However, MoMuSys decoder decodes correctly both streams with GOBs and without GOBs. Was my interpretation of the standard correct? Best regards Luca Celetto -- _/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Luca Celetto - System Engineer _/ _/ STMicroelectronics Srl / Advanced System Technology _/_/ _/ 33170 Pordenone - ITALY _/ _/ Viale de la Comina, 25 _/_/_/ _/ Tel: (+39) 039-603 7488 Fax: (+39) 039-603 6129 / E-mail: luca.celetto@st.com From ramki emuzed.com Thu Jun 6 16:55:13 2002 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:09 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Short Headers and GOB References: <3CFF3343.4010508@st.com> Message-ID: <027301c20d44$7552c0d0$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Hi, Putting GOB marker is not compulsory in MPEG-4 standard. It is optional. regards, ramkishor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luca Celetto" To: Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2023 3:32 PM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Short Headers and GOB > From my interpretation of the MPEG-4 standard (document N4350) for what > regards Short Header modality (section 6.2.5.2, "Video Plane with Short > Header") it seems to me that putting GOB marker in the bitstream is > compulsory and a stream without GOBs is not correct (however, this > interpretation reduces the compatibility between MPEG-4 and H.263). > > However, MoMuSys decoder decodes correctly both streams with GOBs and > without GOBs. > > Was my interpretation of the standard correct? > > Best regards > > Luca Celetto > > -- > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Luca Celetto - System Engineer > _/ _/ STMicroelectronics Srl / Advanced System Technology > _/_/ _/ 33170 Pordenone - ITALY > _/ _/ Viale de la Comina, 25 > _/_/_/ _/ Tel: (+39) 039-603 7488 > Fax: (+39) 039-603 6129 / E-mail: luca.celetto@st.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > From eparente gen-networks.com Thu Jun 6 10:38:50 2002 From: eparente gen-networks.com (Elio Parente) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] unsubscribe Message-ID: <001301c20d5f$7fb7a070$9e2894ce@genesisnetworksinc.com> Please unsubscribe me from your list. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020606/2052ff67/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jun 6 08:25:38 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] unsubscribe Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF57DB@exchange.epr.com> Elio, Members of this list are responsible for getting on the list, and are also responsible for getting off the list again. You received an email a couple of days ago with unsubscription information which includes your personal password. If you lost that email, or forgot your password, you can go here: http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes and have it sent to you. Kind Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Elio Parente [mailto:eparente@gen-networks.com] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2023 6:39 To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] unsubscribe Please unsubscribe me from your list. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020606/65cc1a20/attachment.html From eriks alchemysemi.com Thu Jun 6 14:44:13 2002 From: eriks alchemysemi.com (Erik Schlanger) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control Message-ID: <3CFFAD7D.C430E45D@alchemysemi.com> All, Some questions on mismatch control: The implementation of mismatch control in: MPEG1: touches all of the AC coefficients and works to make the sum of the AC coefficients odd. MPEG2 &4: alters only the least significant AC coefficient and works to make the sum of ALL the coefficients (DC & AC) odd. I assume that the MPEG2/4 algorithm is superior, it only alters the least significant coefficient, therefore changing the data as little as possible. Is this true??? What I really don't understand is what is the purpose of mismatch control?? Can someone answer this for me and point me to a reference which explains it?? All i've found is things which which mention that it is related to controlling long term error in the IDCT, I don't understand how... Thanks in advance for you time, Erik -- ******************************************************************* Erik M. Schlanger Alchemy Semiconductor e-mail : eriks@alchemysemi.com www.alchemysemi.com From wjf NetworkXXIII.com Thu Jun 6 13:44:37 2002 From: wjf NetworkXXIII.com (William J. Fulco) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control In-Reply-To: <3CFFAD7D.C430E45D@alchemysemi.com> Message-ID: Erik, What's going on here is that the arithmetic of all the MPEG standards is, well standardized - except the inverse-DCT. There are Lots-and-Lots of ways to do IDCT - with all kinds of precision and all kinds of multiplications and additions and all sorts of icky arithmetic stuff. It's really up to the decoder-maker to decide how they're going to decide a valid bit-stream (remember, MPEG tells you what a valid-bit-stream looks like - you're in charge of turning that standard-bit-stream into pretty pictures). What "mismatch control" does is "control mismatches" (sorry) - mismatches between the way DCTs on the encoding side and IDCTs on the decoding side for 8x8 blocks. Theoretically, you should be able to DCT and 8x8 block and feed it to an IDCT and get the same answer back. When you start hacking up the coefficients with quantizers and start using different ways to IDCT than to DCT, well - you have mismatch possibilities. As it turns out, some bit patterns have a higher statistical probability of screwing up (depending on arithmetic precision) over time. Really smart people with way too much time on their hands figure out how to prevent these things from happening! So... in MPEG-1 this "mismatch control" process is called "Oddification" (I wish I'd thought up THAT word!). The encoder forces all the DCT coefs to have high-order bits on (negative) and this prevents (well, reduces) mismatch problems between standardized-DCTs and non-standardized-IDCTs for some reason only the guys that actually stayed awake in their college math classes can tell you. In MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 they did away with Oddification (just LOVE that word) and do what's called LSB-Toggling to the 63rd coef Again, people that understand this more than me (plenty of them out there) found that this worked better... the other difference if I remember is that Oddification in MPEG-1 happens before IDCT and LSB-Toggling happens after. Anyone want to fix my possibly lame explanation? ++Bill William J. Fulco wjf@NetworkXXIII.com 310-927-4263 Cell --------------------------------- Logic: When you absolutely, positively have to refute every fallacy in the room. From garysull microsoft.com Thu Jun 6 14:39:08 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B672FE@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Very well put. By the way, in the next-generation video codec standard (known by various names including JVT, AVC, H.264, H.26L, and MPEG-4 part 10) a new approach is taken. This time the guys who stayed awake in their math classes have come up with an approach most consider significantly better. The idea this time is to start with the idea that since no one can reasonably implement infinite-precision trigonometric equations, we should figure out the simplest approximation that works well and get everyone to use the same approximation. Then the complexity of every implementation is reduced and no funny "mismatch control" tweaking of coefficient values is needed. And every decoder will produce exactly the same pictures. -Gary S. +> -----Original Message----- +> From: William J. Fulco [mailto:wjf@NetworkXXIII.com] +> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2023 12:45 PM +> To: Erik Schlanger; technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control +> +> +> Erik, +> +> What's going on here is that the arithmetic of all the MPEG +> standards is, +> well standardized - except the inverse-DCT. There are +> Lots-and-Lots of ways +> to do IDCT - with all kinds of precision and all kinds of +> multiplications +> and additions and all sorts of icky arithmetic stuff. It's +> really up to the +> decoder-maker to decide how they're going to decide a valid +> bit-stream +> (remember, MPEG tells you what a valid-bit-stream looks like +> - you're in +> charge of turning that standard-bit-stream into pretty pictures). +> +> What "mismatch control" does is "control mismatches" (sorry) +> - mismatches +> between the way DCTs on the encoding side and IDCTs on the +> decoding side for +> 8x8 blocks. Theoretically, you should be able to DCT and 8x8 +> block and feed +> it to an IDCT and get the same answer back. When you start +> hacking up the +> coefficients with quantizers and start using different ways +> to IDCT than to +> DCT, well - you have mismatch possibilities. +> +> As it turns out, some bit patterns have a higher +> statistical probability of +> screwing up (depending on arithmetic precision) over time. +> Really smart +> people with way too much time on their hands figure out how +> to prevent these +> things from happening! So... in MPEG-1 this "mismatch +> control" process is +> called "Oddification" (I wish I'd thought up THAT word!). +> The encoder forces +> all the DCT coefs to have high-order bits on (negative) and +> this prevents +> (well, reduces) mismatch problems between standardized-DCTs and +> non-standardized-IDCTs for some reason only the guys that +> actually stayed +> awake in their college math classes can tell you. +> +> In MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 they did away with Oddification (just +> LOVE that word) +> and do what's called LSB-Toggling to the 63rd coef Again, people that +> understand this more than me (plenty of them out there) +> found that this +> worked better... the other difference if I remember is that +> Oddification in +> MPEG-1 happens before IDCT and LSB-Toggling happens after. +> +> Anyone want to fix my possibly lame explanation? +> +> ++Bill +> +> William J. Fulco +> wjf@NetworkXXIII.com +> 310-927-4263 Cell +> --------------------------------- +> Logic: When you absolutely, positively +> have to refute every fallacy in the room. +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From raghu hmus.net Thu Jun 6 15:11:36 2002 From: raghu hmus.net (Raaghu Nagaraj) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control Message-ID: <30A6344AEBFC85429C30FF6C9C501CD102ACC9@bays02.mediator.com> Some usefull information to know wrt Mismatch control would then be.... (I know these are specific IDCT compliance questions.. But if someone can provide info on this it would be helpful) Under which specific conditions would a compliant IDCT produce zero-output for small non-zero input DCT coefficients? Can all these conditions be prevented just by toggling the LSB of the 2's Complement of the highest frequency coefficient? Best regards, Raghu ------------------------------- Raghavendra C. Nagaraj Hutchison Mediator US Inc ------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan [mailto:garysull@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2023 1:39 PM To: William J. Fulco Cc: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control Very well put. By the way, in the next-generation video codec standard (known by various names including JVT, AVC, H.264, H.26L, and MPEG-4 part 10) a new approach is taken. This time the guys who stayed awake in their math classes have come up with an approach most consider significantly better. The idea this time is to start with the idea that since no one can reasonably implement infinite-precision trigonometric equations, we should figure out the simplest approximation that works well and get everyone to use the same approximation. Then the complexity of every implementation is reduced and no funny "mismatch control" tweaking of coefficient values is needed. And every decoder will produce exactly the same pictures. -Gary S. +> -----Original Message----- +> From: William J. Fulco [mailto:wjf@NetworkXXIII.com] +> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2023 12:45 PM +> To: Erik Schlanger; technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control +> +> +> Erik, +> +> What's going on here is that the arithmetic of all the MPEG +> standards is, +> well standardized - except the inverse-DCT. There are +> Lots-and-Lots of ways +> to do IDCT - with all kinds of precision and all kinds of +> multiplications +> and additions and all sorts of icky arithmetic stuff. It's +> really up to the +> decoder-maker to decide how they're going to decide a valid +> bit-stream +> (remember, MPEG tells you what a valid-bit-stream looks like +> - you're in +> charge of turning that standard-bit-stream into pretty pictures). +> +> What "mismatch control" does is "control mismatches" (sorry) +> - mismatches +> between the way DCTs on the encoding side and IDCTs on the +> decoding side for +> 8x8 blocks. Theoretically, you should be able to DCT and 8x8 +> block and feed +> it to an IDCT and get the same answer back. When you start +> hacking up the +> coefficients with quantizers and start using different ways +> to IDCT than to +> DCT, well - you have mismatch possibilities. +> +> As it turns out, some bit patterns have a higher +> statistical probability of +> screwing up (depending on arithmetic precision) over time. +> Really smart +> people with way too much time on their hands figure out how +> to prevent these +> things from happening! So... in MPEG-1 this "mismatch +> control" process is +> called "Oddification" (I wish I'd thought up THAT word!). +> The encoder forces +> all the DCT coefs to have high-order bits on (negative) and +> this prevents +> (well, reduces) mismatch problems between standardized-DCTs and +> non-standardized-IDCTs for some reason only the guys that +> actually stayed +> awake in their college math classes can tell you. +> +> In MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 they did away with Oddification (just +> LOVE that word) +> and do what's called LSB-Toggling to the 63rd coef Again, people that +> understand this more than me (plenty of them out there) +> found that this +> worked better... the other difference if I remember is that +> Oddification in +> MPEG-1 happens before IDCT and LSB-Toggling happens after. +> +> Anyone want to fix my possibly lame explanation? +> +> ++Bill +> +> William J. Fulco +> wjf@NetworkXXIII.com +> 310-927-4263 Cell +> --------------------------------- +> Logic: When you absolutely, positively +> have to refute every fallacy in the room. +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From wjf NetworkXXIII.com Thu Jun 6 18:08:25 2002 From: wjf NetworkXXIII.com (William J. Fulco) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control In-Reply-To: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B672FE@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Gary, > Very well put. Thank you. > By the way, in the next-generation video codec standard > (known by various names including JVT, AVC, H.264, H.26L, > and MPEG-4 part 10) a new approach is taken. This time > the guys who stayed awake in their math classes have come > up with an approach most consider significantly better. very cool... however, I suspect that this solution came from the guys that stayed awake in engineering class ;-) (I'll bet The Math Guys would have just gone with an even more arcane mismatch scheme) ++Bill From garysull microsoft.com Thu Jun 6 19:00:13 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] mismatch control Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC05B6730E@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> +> very cool... however, I suspect that this solution came +> from the guys that stayed awake in engineering class ;-) +> (I'll bet The Math Guys would have just gone with an even +> more arcane mismatch scheme) Yes, I guess you could say the engineering guys have kind of dope-slapped the math guys about this, if everything works out right. (http://cartalk.cars.com/DopeSlap/) And I should mention that at least one of these engineering guys wasn't a guy. -Gary +> +> ++Bill +> +> +> +> From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jun 7 08:31:39 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Latest Mpeg4 Video Source code Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5811@exchange.epr.com> Links to resources are here: http://www.m4if.org/resources.php See "tools", towards the bottom. THe reference code, including the Microsoft reference SW, is here: http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/14496-5_Compressed_ directories/ Best, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Nitin Gupta--DSP, Noida [mailto:gnitin@noida.hcltech.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 4:06 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Latest Mpeg4 Video Source code > > > Hi all, > Plz let me know where i can find the latest > source codes for Mpeg4 video encoder & decoder > of both ISO & Microsoft. That would be of grt help. > > Thanx & Regards, > Nitin Gupta. > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From lcheng62 yahoo.com Fri Jun 7 17:46:27 2002 From: lcheng62 yahoo.com (Liang Cheng) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] 2 questions on FGS Message-ID: <20020607234627.61892.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Have FGS been approved by MPEG-4? Is there any reference code for FGS? Thank you, Liang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jun 7 18:24:57 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] 2 questions on FGS Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5838@exchange.epr.com> > Have FGS been approved by MPEG-4? Yes. > Is there any reference code for FGS? Yes, but not yet released as far as I know. WEiping? Rob From xhjin hf.tvia.com Sat Jun 8 09:48:00 2002 From: xhjin hf.tvia.com (XiangHua Jin) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chinese display of mpeg-4 In-Reply-To: <20020607234627.61892.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401c20e86$236cbad0$5802a8c0@hf.tvia.com> Hi, Everybody: Does anyone know Mpeg-4 system have supported Chinese display yet? Regards --XH From li webcasttech.com Fri Jun 7 19:11:38 2002 From: li webcasttech.com (Weiping Li) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:10 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] 2 questions on FGS References: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5838@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <002b01c20e89$742845e0$126ea8c0@AdminPC> Rob, The FGS reference software FDAM has been available in an MPEG document N4711 from the Jeju meeting. I am not sure about the final approval process at ISO. Therefore, it is certainly available to MPEG members now. For the general public, I guess we have to check with ISO. Best regards, Weiping ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Koenen" To: "'Liang Cheng'" ; Cc: "Weiping Li (WebCast) (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, June 07, 2023 5:24 PM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] 2 questions on FGS > > Have FGS been approved by MPEG-4? > Yes. > > > Is there any reference code for FGS? > Yes, but not yet released as far as I know. > WEiping? > > Rob From jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr Sat Jun 8 13:05:31 2002 From: jean-claude.dufourd enst.fr (Jean-Claude Dufourd) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chinese display of mpeg-4 References: <000401c20e86$236cbad0$5802a8c0@hf.tvia.com> Message-ID: <3D01D6EB.20EE0781@enst.fr> In theory, MPEG-4 Systems uses UTF-8 and supports anything supported by UTF-8. I have worked on a project where both the player and the authoring tools have been enabled for Japanese character display. So I am quite sure that there would be no problem in enabling Chinese character systems in these tools. It is also very likely that the Serome player (from Korea) can display all of the east asian character systems. XiangHua Jin a ?crit : > Does anyone know Mpeg-4 system have supported Chinese display yet? Best regards JC From frans inwind.it Sun Jun 9 20:57:25 2002 From: frans inwind.it (Francesco Falconi) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Still Texture Coding Wavelet: Tiling Use. Message-ID: <000d01c20fdf$1d03b0e0$46c47550@francesc0h4ebp> Hello to everyone, and thanks to everyone could help me. I'd like to implement tiling in still texture wavelet coding (ISO 14496 source). The User Guide isn't so clear about the tile use, my aim is to find a way to give a different quantization step (for AC band) for each tile. In the file parameter (.ctl) I can see these options: % tiling_disable % tiling_jump_table_enable % tile width % tile height % target tile % QDC-Y, QDC-UV % spatial scalability % snr_lev (QY QUV) Is it possible modifying these parameters to obtain a different SNRlevel (QY QUV) for each tile? Do you know some link or email which can be useseful for my purpose? Thank you very much for your time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020609/afcc084d/attachment.html From vidyesh.nabar tatainfotech.com Mon Jun 10 13:49:26 2002 From: vidyesh.nabar tatainfotech.com (VIDYESH S. NABAR) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] conformance tools for mp4 audio Message-ID: hi, where can i find tools for testing the conformance of mp4 audio ? are such tools downloadable ? i've downloaded the streams from the at&t site for testing the LC AAC decoder. but i couldn't find the corresponding PCM files. are they available anywhere ? regards, vidyesh From kenny.chen intel.com Mon Jun 10 17:32:02 2002 From: kenny.chen intel.com (Chen, Kenny) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple profile Message-ID: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA2601512FBE@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> Hi, In ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001(E), Table 9-1, for simple profile, all three mode of error resilience should be enabled. (slice resynchronization, data partitioning, RVLC). This will add much more complexity for the decoder. I don't understand why should them be included only for simple profile? That's to say, is that every decoder which claim to support simple profile should support all error resilience modes? Regards Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020610/80990586/attachment.html From chngyih.ng motorola.com Mon Jun 10 18:40:33 2002 From: chngyih.ng motorola.com (Ng chng-yih-a15196) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] unsubscribe Message-ID: Please unsubscribe me from your list. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020610/08bba8ac/attachment.html From eparente gen-networks.com Mon Jun 10 10:44:44 2002 From: eparente gen-networks.com (Elio Parente) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Unsubscribe Message-ID: <000601c21084$fac75490$ad0aa8c0@genesisnetworksinc.com> Please unsubscribe me from the list. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020610/7875a3d5/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Jun 10 11:17:46 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5857@exchange.epr.com> Using the error resilience tools is always optional, because behavior in the face of errors is not normatively defined. The tools are in Simple Profile because Simple was designed for mobile use. Other people than me will be able to explain that implementation of these tools does not need to be too onerous. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 1:32 To: M4IF FORUM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple profile Hi, In ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001(E), Table 9-1, for simple profile, all three mode of error resilience should be enabled. (slice resynchronization, data partitioning, RVLC). This will add much more complexity for the decoder. I don't understand why should them be included only for simple profile? That's to say, is that every decoder which claim to support simple profile should support all error resilience modes? Regards Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020610/55f19169/attachment.html From kenny.chen intel.com Tue Jun 11 11:27:59 2002 From: kenny.chen intel.com (Chen, Kenny) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Message-ID: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26015131A7@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> Rob, Thanks for your support! Say, we want to use the error resilience for wireless channel. There are still three modes to be supported in MPEG4, and each seems quite different. Is there any reference, in which condition, which mode should be enabled? Or all the three modes should be enabled for mobile use? Thanks Ken -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: 2002?6?11? 1:18 To: 'Chen, Kenny'; M4IF FORUM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Using the error resilience tools is always optional, because behavior in the face of errors is not normatively defined. The tools are in Simple Profile because Simple was designed for mobile use. Other people than me will be able to explain that implementation of these tools does not need to be too onerous. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 1:32 To: M4IF FORUM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple profile Hi, In ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001(E), Table 9-1, for simple profile, all three mode of error resilience should be enabled. (slice resynchronization, data partitioning, RVLC). This will add much more complexity for the decoder. I don't understand why should them be included only for simple profile? That's to say, is that every decoder which claim to support simple profile should support all error resilience modes? Regards Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020611/83718df8/attachment.html From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Mon Jun 10 11:59:06 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:11 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: what is huffman code if there is only dc coefficient in a intra block, or how to encode the intra block? thank for your help! From Max.Griessl dynapel.de Tue Jun 11 09:47:11 2002 From: Max.Griessl dynapel.de (Max Griessl) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: VBV comments References: <002501c2055f$d625d1f0$5990340a@ctn.st.com> Message-ID: <3D059CEF.5000204@dynapel.de> Hi Arcangelo, Arcangelo Bruna wrote: > > Hi. > I'm implementing a real time Simple Profile encoder. I have a problem in > the VBV implementation. > The standard says to use the stuffing bits (bytes) to avoid underflow, > but, in this profile, only the stuffing MB are allowable, because the > stuffing_start_code can not be used. > > > > Unfortunately, for a real time implementation, it is not really a simple > thing: in fact, they can not introduced in the next frame because it > will be inserted in the VB surely when it is already empty. So we must > insert them only in the already encoded frame, so the frame size become > bigger. > But what happen if the frame size become too bigger so that when the > decoder requires it the frame it is not transmitted at all? I am not a hardware expert. Only for a hard coded MPEG-4 decoder with limited memory the buffersize is really relevant. But in reallity I would say a hardware decoder does not process a whole frame at one time. It will take some time to decode Macroblock after Macroblock and later on the stuffing macroblocks. During that decoding new input bits are put into the buffer. The simultanous putting to and getting bits from the VBV buffer must be balanced to avoid overflow and underflow. I have no experience how this can be modelled in a realistic way. Maybe other (hardware) people can clarify this. > > > > Another problem: we can not re-encode the frame (due to the real time > encoding constraints), so we will insert the stuffing MB at the end of > the frame. But what happen if, using the Video Packet, the last video > packet become bigger than the profile's constraints (2048 bits for the > SP@L1 )? > > > > All these problems could be avoided allowing the stuffing_start_code in > each profiles & levels. Is there a reason why it is not so? Is possible > to suggest it to the standardization committee? For simple profile it will never be changed, because it is already standarized. The stuffing_start code has been added after the simple profile was already fixed. > > > > Thanks, > Arcangelo. > Hope this helps, Max -- Max Griessl DynaPel Laboratories GmbH Software Design Fraunhoferstr. 9/2 Tel: +49 (0) 89 96242812 D-85737 Ismaning, Germany Fax: +49 (0) 89 96242890 http://www.dynapel.de From krangam lsil.com Tue Jun 11 11:54:47 2002 From: krangam lsil.com (kasturi rangam) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: GMC concept References: <3CFE94ED.C2E6AC86@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3D063966.F1CF8792@lsil.com> Please help.. > > Hi, > > >From what I understand, for a zoomed reference, the motion vector > is of the form X=Ai, Y=Ej. The warped reference for each macroblock > is exactly the same shape and next to each other (no overlap). But, > concept-wise only the zoom-center is scaled exactly the same as the > picture and rest of them are distored (perspective distortion). So how > exactly the global compensation helps in this scenario while using the > same parameters A and E for all the macroblocks. > > Thanks, > > Kasturi From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jun 11 14:25:38 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF589B@exchange.epr.com> I am not aware of such references offhand myself, but I am not in the field of mobile video coding. For best results, you should use all the tools, so that you can resynch after errors, can decode backwards until you hit the error, and can still use the motion information if there are errors elsewhere. There is a lot of literature on error resilience in video coding, e.g. check the IEEE Transactions on Circuits and Systems for Video Technology. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 19:28 To: Rob Koenen; M4IF FORUM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Rob, Thanks for your support! Say, we want to use the error resilience for wireless channel. There are still three modes to be supported in MPEG4, and each seems quite different. Is there any reference, in which condition, which mode should be enabled? Or all the three modes should be enabled for mobile use? Thanks Ken -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: 2002?6?11? 1:18 To: 'Chen, Kenny'; M4IF FORUM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Using the error resilience tools is always optional, because behavior in the face of errors is not normatively defined. The tools are in Simple Profile because Simple was designed for mobile use. Other people than me will be able to explain that implementation of these tools does not need to be too onerous. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 1:32 To: M4IF FORUM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple profile Hi, In ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001(E), Table 9-1, for simple profile, all three mode of error resilience should be enabled. (slice resynchronization, data partitioning, RVLC). This will add much more complexity for the decoder. I don't understand why should them be included only for simple profile? That's to say, is that every decoder which claim to support simple profile should support all error resilience modes? Regards Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020611/37960747/attachment.html From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jun 11 14:27:41 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error pattern Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF589C@exchange.epr.com> Ken, THere is information in the original Call for Proposals for MPEG-4. This was obviously a public document. I will send it to you separately. For those interested: this is N0999 from MPEG's 1995 Tokyo meeting. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2024 23:21 > To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error pattern > > > Hi, > > Where can I find the code and document for different error pattern for > different channel for error resilience > > Thanks > Ken > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From sps iis.fhg.de Wed Jun 12 12:13:06 2002 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: conformance tools for mp4 audio References: Message-ID: <3D0710A2.E1ABF1BE@iis.fhg.de> Dear Vidyesh, all, the sequences available on the AT&T web site are outdated. Due to some internal changes at AT&T it is furthermore not expected that this site will be updated anymore (Schyler, please correct me if I am wrong). The MPEG-4 Audio conformance test sequences are now collected here: ftp://mpaudconf:adif2mp4@ftp.iis.fhg.de/guests/mpeg4audio/incoming/testSequences/mpeg4audio-conformance/ The tools to test the conformance criteria are part of the reference software. Best regards, Ralph "VIDYESH S. NABAR" wrote: > > hi, > > where can i find tools for testing the conformance of mp4 audio ? are such > tools downloadable ? > > i've downloaded the streams from the at&t site for testing the LC AAC > decoder. but i couldn't find the corresponding PCM files. are they > available anywhere ? > > regards, > > vidyesh > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Wolfsmantel 33 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 335 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020612/e21211a2/sps.bin From tamer.shanableh motorola.com Wed Jun 12 15:02:41 2002 From: tamer.shanableh motorola.com (Shanableh Tamer-BTS027) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Message-ID: Ken, The three resilience modes you are referring to i.e. Video Packet structure, Data partitioning and reversible VLCs are arranged in a rather hieratical manner. That is Data partitioning is employed within Video Packets and RVLCs are employed with data partitioning. Therefore some modes cannot be enabled on there own. For mobile use, the least that the encoder is recommended to enable is the Video Packet structure and the optional Header Extension (HE). Mind you that HE does not have to be enabled for all the Video Packets rather, the first and/or the second packets only. As such the decoder should be able to localise errors and resync its decoding process. More importantly, if the VOP header is corrupted then it can be rectified by the replicated information decoded from the HE. If more protection is needed or in other words if a better concealment quality is sought then the encoder might want to enable Data partitioning. Likewise sparsely populated RVLCs makes it easier for decoders to detect invalid VLC codes. Furthermore, conformant Simple Profile decoders have to recognise and decode the three resilience modes. Mind you that this should be quite simple and straightforward. The decoder has to understand the syntax of resync markers and reset its predictors once a Video Packet is encountered and so forth. As for RVLC it is a matter of using a different set of VLC tables. This is what is required for the decoder to be compliant, therefore to my understanding such an implementation is not at all onerous. On the other hand, error detection and concealment benefit from proprietary techniques and algorithms that can be added to the decoder. Tamer Shanableh Motorola -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 19:28 To: Rob Koenen; M4IF FORUM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Rob, Thanks for your support! Say, we want to use the error resilience for wireless channel. There are still three modes to be supported in MPEG4, and each seems quite different. Is there any reference, in which condition, which mode should be enabled? Or all the three modes should be enabled for mobile use? Thanks Ken -----Original Message----- From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] Sent: 2002?6?11? 1:18 To: 'Chen, Kenny'; M4IF FORUM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple prof ile Using the error resilience tools is always optional, because behavior in the face of errors is not normatively defined. The tools are in Simple Profile because Simple was designed for mobile use. Other people than me will be able to explain that implementation of these tools does not need to be too onerous. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Chen, Kenny [mailto:kenny.chen@intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2023 1:32 To: M4IF FORUM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] question on error resilience for simple profile Hi, In ISO/IEC 14496-2:2001(E), Table 9-1, for simple profile, all three mode of error resilience should be enabled. (slice resynchronization, data partitioning, RVLC). This will add much more complexity for the decoder. I don't understand why should them be included only for simple profile? That's to say, is that every decoder which claim to support simple profile should support all error resilience modes? Regards Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020612/9e09a664/attachment.html From khuber sorenson.com Wed Jun 12 12:24:49 2002 From: khuber sorenson.com (Kris Huber) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: GMC concept Message-ID: <70A238C106788B49A1B7B46C050DEDFE228E84@pandora.sorenson.com> Hello Kasturi, >Please help.. > >> >> Hi, >> >> >From what I understand, for a zoomed reference, the motion vector >> is of the form X=Ai, Y=Ej. The warped reference for each macroblock >> is exactly the same shape and next to each other (no overlap). But, >> concept-wise only the zoom-center is scaled exactly the same as the >> picture and rest of them are distored (perspective distortion). So how >> exactly the global compensation helps in this scenario while using the >> same parameters A and E for all the macroblocks. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kasturi The description above is not in the language of the visual standard. The description is similar to global motion models 0 and 1, but neither of these allow for any zooming at all; the affine models (no_of_sprite_warping_points=2 or 3) is required for zooming. Model 2 can handle translation, rotation, and zooming, but the geometry of the reference frame is preserved. Model 3 allows, in addition, the reference frame to be "skewed", i.e., geometry of reference frame modified in such a way that rectangles turn into parallelograms. Model 4, the perspective transform, is not part of the GMC tool. I think the author of the comment above is correct about the zoom-center being scaled exactly as we would want and a poorer match possible further out from the center if any of the following are true: - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion at the focal length and iris setting in use. Usually for distant scenes there is less distortion than close-ups. If the camera iris is almost closed, so that only the center of the lens is effective, then I think distortion tends to be less as well--so bright scenes may have less distortion and low-light scenes more distortion (I could be wrong on this point though--I think it's true based on the fact that a pin-hole lens is ideal and distortion-free). - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion and there is a large translational motion of the scene. - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion and the shape of the distortion changes as the scene is zoomed (I am not familiar with the multiple lens systems normally used for zooming and do not know how common this is, or if it occurs at all). That said, distortion is a figure of merit that is minimized during the design of most cameras. Often it is minimized to the point that it is imperceptible. I suspect that effectiveness of GMC is more sensitive to optical distortion than the human eye, but I don't think this matters much except maybe at very low frame rates, when we can expect, from the video compression algorithm's perspective, very large global translations and very fast zooms. My guess is that for relatively high frame rates (maybe 15 fps and above) the effectiveness of GMC prediction should not be affected noticeably by optical distortion. Optical distortion is something we do live with, and can be expected to be present in quite a few cameras, I think. How about applying some GMC hardware to compensate for it ;-)? You'd have to generate the distortion-correcting coordinates using appropriate distortion-correcting equations rather than those defined in the MPEG-4 visual stardard. Such equations might be similar to the perspective transform's, but probably would differ from design to design and according to camera settings. For 360-degree cameras, I'm sure digital distortion correction is already done. Best regards, Kris P.S. Note that "distortion" in this discussion is optical distortion, which is not the same as the distortion used to characterize image compression performance. There are two types of optical distortion - fish-eye or barrel distortion (in which a square viewed through it tends toward a circle) and pin-cushion distortion (which is the opposite, with the sides of the square appearing curved toward the center and the corners appearing more pointed). From krangam lsil.com Wed Jun 12 12:02:35 2002 From: krangam lsil.com (kasturi rangam) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: GMC concept References: <70A238C106788B49A1B7B46C050DEDFE228E84@pandora.sorenson.com> Message-ID: <3D078CBB.2B8F110F@lsil.com> Hi Kris, Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation. I guess the key is that in real world, you don't do fast zoom-in and zoom-out and with higher frame rate, the change in shape from the previous frame should be close to being uniform for the entire frame. Also I was wondering if this equation corresponds to a zoom-in. X=0.5i + W/4; Y=0.5j + H/4 without change in shape. Thanks again, --Kasturi Kris Huber wrote: > > Hello Kasturi, > > >Please help.. > > > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> >From what I understand, for a zoomed reference, the motion vector > >> is of the form X=Ai, Y=Ej. The warped reference for each macroblock > >> is exactly the same shape and next to each other (no overlap). But, > >> concept-wise only the zoom-center is scaled exactly the same as the > >> picture and rest of them are distored (perspective distortion). So how > >> exactly the global compensation helps in this scenario while using the > >> same parameters A and E for all the macroblocks. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Kasturi > > The description above is not in the language of the visual standard. The > description is similar to global motion models 0 and 1, but neither of these > allow for any zooming at all; the affine models > (no_of_sprite_warping_points=2 or 3) is required for zooming. Model 2 can > handle translation, rotation, and zooming, but the geometry of the reference > frame is preserved. Model 3 allows, in addition, the reference frame to be > "skewed", i.e., geometry of reference frame modified in such a way that > rectangles turn into parallelograms. Model 4, the perspective transform, is > not part of the GMC tool. > > I think the author of the comment above is correct about the zoom-center > being scaled exactly as we would want and a poorer match possible further > out from the center if any of the following are true: > - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion at > the focal length and iris setting in use. Usually for distant scenes there > is less distortion than close-ups. If the camera iris is almost closed, so > that only the center of the lens is effective, then I think distortion tends > to be less as well--so bright scenes may have less distortion and low-light > scenes more distortion (I could be wrong on this point though--I think it's > true based on the fact that a pin-hole lens is ideal and distortion-free). > - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion and > there is a large translational motion of the scene. > - The optical system generating the sequence has significant distortion and > the shape of the distortion changes as the scene is zoomed (I am not > familiar with the multiple lens systems normally used for zooming and do not > know how common this is, or if it occurs at all). > > That said, distortion is a figure of merit that is minimized during the > design of most cameras. Often it is minimized to the point that it is > imperceptible. I suspect that effectiveness of GMC is more sensitive to > optical distortion than the human eye, but I don't think this matters much > except maybe at very low frame rates, when we can expect, from the video > compression algorithm's perspective, very large global translations and very > fast zooms. My guess is that for relatively high frame rates (maybe 15 fps > and above) the effectiveness of GMC prediction should not be affected > noticeably by optical distortion. > > Optical distortion is something we do live with, and can be expected to be > present in quite a few cameras, I think. How about applying some GMC > hardware to compensate for it ;-)? You'd have to generate the > distortion-correcting coordinates using appropriate distortion-correcting > equations rather than those defined in the MPEG-4 visual stardard. Such > equations might be similar to the perspective transform's, but probably > would differ from design to design and according to camera settings. For > 360-degree cameras, I'm sure digital distortion correction is already done. > > Best regards, > Kris > > P.S. Note that "distortion" in this discussion is optical distortion, which > is not the same as the distortion used to characterize image compression > performance. There are two types of optical distortion - fish-eye or barrel > distortion (in which a square viewed through it tends toward a circle) and > pin-cushion distortion (which is the opposite, with the sides of the square > appearing curved toward the center and the corners appearing more pointed). From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Thu Jun 13 14:31:22 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: When encoded a intra macroblock,the luminance and the chrominance should subtract from 128, shouldn't they? thank for your help! From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Thu Jun 13 14:31:48 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: When encoded a intra macroblock,the luminance and the chrominance should subtract from 128 before DCT, shouldn't they? thank for your help! From ansimn yahoo.com Thu Jun 13 04:08:03 2002 From: ansimn yahoo.com (Ansari M N) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <20020613100803.49393.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm Ansi. Can anyone tell me from where can I get the mpeg4 systems test bitstreams.If mp4 and mpeg4 systems are same Thanking U, Ansari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From Jean-Claude.Dufourd enst.fr Thu Jun 13 14:36:57 2002 From: Jean-Claude.Dufourd enst.fr (Jean-Claude Dufourd) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** References: <20020613100803.49393.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D0883D9.2030904@enst.fr> Ansari M N wrote: > Can anyone tell me from where can I get the > mpeg4 systems test bitstreams. They are not posted anywhere on a website or ftp site. Too big. You have to by the 4CDs or the DVD from ISO. Ask for ISO/IEC 14496-4:2000. > If mp4 and mpeg4 systems > are same mp4 is included in MPEG-4 Systems, but there are no specific conformance streams for mp4. Best regards JC -- Jean-Claude Dufourd @======================================@ ENST, Dept COMELEC The wing, over the big rock... 46, rue Barrault @======================================@ 75013 Paris Tel: +33145817807 Fax: +33145804036 From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Thu Jun 13 14:53:52 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:12 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196D85E@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> > I'm Ansi. Can anyone tell me from where can I get the > mpeg4 systems test bitstreams. They are available for MPEG members in the conformance spec. I'll check what can be made available to M4IF. Maybe Jean-claude knows. > If mp4 and mpeg4 systems > are same MP4 is the file format specification developed by the MPEG-4 Systems group. cu, O. From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jun 13 15:53:14 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5950@exchange.epr.com> Go to http://www.m4if.org/resources.php and look for MPEG-4 Video Conformance Bitstreams available for download MPEG-4 Audio Conformance Bitstreams available for download It's all linked from there. rob > -----Original Message----- > From: AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > [mailto:olivier.avaro@rd.francetelecom.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 4:54 > To: Ansari M N; technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > > > I'm Ansi. Can anyone tell me from where can I get the > > mpeg4 systems test bitstreams. > They are available for MPEG members in the conformance spec. > I'll check what can be made available to M4IF. > Maybe Jean-claude knows. > > > If mp4 and mpeg4 systems > > are same > MP4 is the file format specification developed by the MPEG-4 Systems > group. > > cu, > > O. > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jun 13 17:03:39 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5958@exchange.epr.com> Apologies - these are only the AUdio and Video bistreams, not the requested Systems ones. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 14:53 > To: 'AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN'; Ansari M N; technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > Go to http://www.m4if.org/resources.php > and look for > MPEG-4 Video Conformance Bitstreams available for download > MPEG-4 Audio Conformance Bitstreams available for download > It's all linked from there. > > rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > > [mailto:olivier.avaro@rd.francetelecom.com] > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 4:54 > > To: Ansari M N; technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > > > > > > > I'm Ansi. Can anyone tell me from where can I get the > > > mpeg4 systems test bitstreams. > > They are available for MPEG members in the conformance spec. > > I'll check what can be made available to M4IF. > > Maybe Jean-claude knows. > > > > > If mp4 and mpeg4 systems > > > are same > > MP4 is the file format specification developed by the MPEG-4 Systems > > group. > > > > cu, > > > > O. > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From ansimn yahoo.com Thu Jun 13 23:12:24 2002 From: ansimn yahoo.com (Ansari M N) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5958@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <20020614051224.55956.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Rob, Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The first thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I visited mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 audio streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could find there. Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source code from the same site. I managed to compile it successfully. To run n check its performance I need a mpeg4 sys file as its input. I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from websites Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n gives an error like "Invalid Url" Can u help me to fix this issue. cheers, Ansi --- Rob Koenen wrote: > Apologies - these are only the AUdio and Video > bistreams, > not the requested Systems ones. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 14:53 > > To: 'AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN'; Ansari M N; > technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > > > > Go to http://www.m4if.org/resources.php > > and look for > > MPEG-4 Video Conformance Bitstreams available for > download > > MPEG-4 Audio Conformance Bitstreams available > for download > > It's all linked from there. > > > > rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > > > [mailto:olivier.avaro@rd.francetelecom.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 4:54 > > > To: Ansari M N; technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm Ansi. Can anyone tell me from where can I > get the > > > > mpeg4 systems test bitstreams. > > > They are available for MPEG members in the > conformance spec. > > > I'll check what can be made available to M4IF. > > > Maybe Jean-claude knows. > > > > > > > If mp4 and mpeg4 systems > > > > are same > > > MP4 is the file format specification developed > by the MPEG-4 Systems > > > group. > > > > > > cu, > > > > > > O. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Technotes mailing list > > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From shravan784u yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 00:41:23 2002 From: shravan784u yahoo.com (Shravan Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <20020614064123.61815.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, I'm Shravan from India. I need to get the performance and complexity analysis of a mpeg4 systems decoder(pls rem this is systems not video or audio) performance in terms of MIPS, RAM and ROM requirements. Will I be able to run the decoder code in ARM7 or if ARM9 is required. Thanx in advance Shravan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Thu Jun 13 16:29:18 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] how to pad Message-ID: how to pad the top_left MB which out of a rectangular vop? thank for your help! From Janne.Vehkapera vtt.fi Fri Jun 14 13:33:54 2002 From: Janne.Vehkapera vtt.fi (Janne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vehkaper=E4?=) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Reference codec and scalability Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020614120740.00bac100@elemail.ele.vtt.fi> Hi, I have few problems with the Microsoft reference codec and scalability options in it and I would appreciate if someone could help me. First of all, I have tried to use temporal and spatial scalability options and I always get the same error notes from the encoder. Error note says: "Error! Unexpected end of file while reading source sequence". It's like the encoder couldn't find the source YUV-file after encoding the first frame. The error note always appear after the first encoded frame, so what do I do wrong? And could someone tell me where I can get more information about the scalability parametres in parameter file. I have also problems with FGS reference codec. My Visual C++ 6.0 cannot build the encoder without errors during the linking. So I was wondering, is this FGS encoder ready or is still under construction? If it is not ready yet, could someone tell me when it should be? I was also wondering where I can get more information about the FGS-server program, which is included in the FGS reference software? Is there any user's manual or helpfile available about the FGS-server ?Thank you in advance for your assistance. Regards, Janne Vehkaper? From heat_mist yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 09:51:56 2002 From: heat_mist yahoo.com (Heat Mist) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] What is in mpeg-4 system bitstreams? Message-ID: <20020614155156.75500.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Can anyone tell me what is in the mpeg-4 system bitstreams: the SL-packetized streams after the sync layer, or the multiplexed streams after delivery layer? It seems that it only exists on the certain point of the generation and transmission path, not as static storage file. If stored as a file, it is supposed to be stored as mp4 file format. Is this understanding correct? Thanks cft __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From manystreamspk yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 14:44:05 2002 From: manystreamspk yahoo.com (Pradeep Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <20020614204405.22124.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Folks I am working on putting a comprehensive paper on MPEG 4 Testing , interoperability testing etc. This shall include every aspect of MPEG 4 Testing. There are no documents publicly available. If you have been testing MPEG 4 or are interested in tuning in, please let me know. Regards Pradeep Subscibe to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ and help build MPEG 4 Testing Community. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From manystreamspk yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 14:47:25 2002 From: manystreamspk yahoo.com (Pradeep Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Building a MPEG 4 Test Community Message-ID: <20020614204725.55399.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> If you are interested in joining a MPEG 4 test community, please subscribe to:- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jun 14 14:49:52 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF598D@exchange.epr.com> Please not that M4IF already has an interoperability community, that is some 30 companies and growing. This activity is for members. It takes quite a lot of dedication and time to do useful testing. Success with your effort, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Pradeep Kumar [mailto:manystreamspk@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2023 13:44 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > Hi Folks > > I am working on putting a comprehensive paper on MPEG > 4 Testing , interoperability testing etc. This shall > include every aspect of MPEG 4 Testing. > > There are no documents publicly available. > > If you have been testing MPEG 4 or are interested in > tuning in, please let me know. > > Regards > Pradeep > > Subscibe to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ > and help build MPEG 4 Testing Community. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From rkoenen intertrust.com Sun Jun 16 23:30:59 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF59B6@exchange.epr.com> Ansi, We are (Olivier is) looking into the MPEG-4 Systems Bitstream issue. > Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The first > thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I visited > mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 audio > streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could > find there. I guess you mean m4if.org There are only links on m4if.org by the way, we don not host streams ourselves. > Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source code > from the same site. I managed to compile it > successfully. To run n check its performance I need a > mpeg4 sys file as its input. > I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from websites > Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. > The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n gives > an error like "Invalid Url" I do not know which source code you are referring to. We don't host any on our own site, as I mentioned Please be more precise. mp4 files can be found, for instance, here http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/ http://www.envivio.com/solutions/etv/sample.jsp (If anyone knows of other mp4 files, let me know. We are making an overview of links to MP4 content for the Resources Page) Rob From rkoenen intertrust.com Sun Jun 16 23:33:13 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF59B7@exchange.epr.com> Please study the Profiles in Systems first. The requirement vary wildly. See http://www.m4if.org/resources/w4668.pdf Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Shravan Kumar [mailto:shravan784u@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2023 23:41 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > > Hi Everybody, > I'm Shravan from India. I need to get the performance > and complexity analysis of a mpeg4 systems > decoder(pls rem this is systems not video or audio) > performance in terms of MIPS, RAM and ROM > requirements. > Will I be able to run the decoder code in ARM7 or > if ARM9 is required. > > Thanx in advance > Shravan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From sadaf.waqas streaming-networks.com Mon Jun 17 14:10:29 2002 From: sadaf.waqas streaming-networks.com (sadaf) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] aspect ratio info Message-ID: <000701c215d6$7ddb3da0$2205a8c0@streamingnetworks.com> Sir, This is in reference to your question put up on mpeg4 Technotes mailing list, relating to pixel aspect ratios used in MPEG-4 Visual on feb22, 2002. Since I am new in mpeg4 world, and i am trying to parse the video object layer bitwise. Can you tell me the exact value of "extended_par"? As far as i know its a 4 bit field and when parsing video object layer, a condition comes when aspect ratio info is checked to be equal to extended_par. I am not quite sure about the valid value of extended_par field. Can you help me out. I will be very grateful thanx in advance... From tma iis.fhg.de Mon Jun 17 15:01:53 2002 From: tma iis.fhg.de (Herbert Thoma) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] aspect ratio info References: <000701c215d6$7ddb3da0$2205a8c0@streamingnetworks.com> Message-ID: <3D0DCFB1.1585EC71@iis.fhg.de> sadaf wrote: > > Sir, > This is in reference to your question put up on mpeg4 Technotes mailing > list, relating to pixel aspect ratios used in MPEG-4 Visual on feb22, 2002. > Since I am new in mpeg4 world, and i am trying to parse the video object > layer bitwise. > > Can you tell me the exact value of "extended_par"? As far as i know its a 4 > bit field and when parsing video object layer, a condition comes when aspect > ratio info is checked to be equal to extended_par. see table 6-12 of 14496-2 extended PAR is 1111. Herbert. > I am not quite sure about the valid value of extended_par field. Can you > help me out. I will be very grateful > > thanx in advance... > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- Herbert Thoma FhG-IIS A, Studio Department Am Wolfsmantel 33, 91058 Erlangen, Germany Phone: +49-9131-776-323 Fax: +49-9131-776-399 email: tma@iis.fhg.de www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/ From rchandpur tataelxsi.co.in Mon Jun 17 18:36:03 2002 From: rchandpur tataelxsi.co.in (RUTURAJ CHANDPUR ) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:13 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] aspect ratio info References: <000701c215d6$7ddb3da0$2205a8c0@streamingnetworks.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c215f7$5ab482c0$0314010a@tataelxsi.co.in> Hello Sadaf, The extended_par is a 4 bit value. It is equal to 1111, as mentioned in table 6-12 of 14496-2. Hope this helps. rgds, Ruturaj Anand Chandpur ----- Original Message ----- From: sadaf To: ; Sent: Monday, June 17, 2023 1:40 PM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] aspect ratio info > Sir, > This is in reference to your question put up on mpeg4 Technotes mailing > list, relating to pixel aspect ratios used in MPEG-4 Visual on feb22, 2002. > Since I am new in mpeg4 world, and i am trying to parse the video object > layer bitwise. > > Can you tell me the exact value of "extended_par"? As far as i know its a 4 > bit field and when parsing video object layer, a condition comes when aspect > ratio info is checked to be equal to extended_par. > > I am not quite sure about the valid value of extended_par field. Can you > help me out. I will be very grateful > > thanx in advance... > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Jun 17 21:44:44 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DB37@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> Hi Pradeep, Can you detail a bit more what is the objectiv of this project wrt other activities in MPEG, M4IF, ISMA ? I can not find it on the Newsgroup and I am a bit reluctant to joint yami (yet another MPEG-4 interoperability) activity if this can be done in one of the existing group. cu, O. > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Pradeep Kumar [mailto:manystreamspk@yahoo.com] > Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 22:44 > A : technotes@lists.m4if.org > Objet : [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > Hi Folks > > I am working on putting a comprehensive paper on MPEG > 4 Testing , interoperability testing etc. This shall > include every aspect of MPEG 4 Testing. > > There are no documents publicly available. > > If you have been testing MPEG 4 or are interested in > tuning in, please let me know. > > Regards > Pradeep > > Subscibe to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ > and help build MPEG 4 Testing Community. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Jun 17 21:44:47 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] What is in mpeg-4 system bitstreams? Message-ID: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DB38@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> > Can anyone tell me what is in the mpeg-4 system > bitstreams: the SL-packetized streams after the sync > layer, or the multiplexed streams after delivery > layer? It seems that it only exists on the certain > point of the generation and transmission path, not as > static storage file. If stored as a file, it is > supposed to be stored as mp4 file format. Is this > understanding correct? In MP4, streams are stored in their *natural* form (i.e. transport independent), therefore not multiplexed and without SL. This is the case for audio and visual streams as well as for Systems streams (containing scene description, interactivity, ...). When you stream them, depending on the transport, you may decide to use the sync functionality provided by the targeted transport (ex : RTP), or to use SL (ex : in MPEG-4 streams on MPEG-2 systems) and you may decide to multiplex them. cu, O. From manystreamspk yahoo.com Mon Jun 17 14:46:08 2002 From: manystreamspk yahoo.com (Pradeep Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] QOS / DiffServer/Inteserve and Streaming Content MPEG 4 Message-ID: <20020617204608.1097.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Folks Has anyone had any experience setting up Diffserv/Intserve/QoS for Streaming Content. I have played around with QoS( to be precise Bandwidth Management) for non streaming traffic. What are the general issues to be kept in mind for streaming traffic ? Thanks PK ===== Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From imoccaga lsil.com Mon Jun 17 14:54:55 2002 From: imoccaga lsil.com (iole moccagatta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing References: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DB37@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> Message-ID: <3D0E4C9F.589C736F@lsil.com> Olivier, AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN wrote: > Hi Pradeep, > > Can you detail a bit more what is the objectiv of this project wrt other > activities in MPEG, M4IF, ISMA ? I can not find it on the Newsgroup and > I am a bit reluctant to joint yami (yet another MPEG-4 interoperability) > activity if this can be done in one of the existing group. > can you please list the activities going on in MPEG, M4IF, and ISMA that are related to MPEG-4 interoperability ? Regards, Iole > -- ============================================================================== = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = = = = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = = = = = = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = = ante." = = = ============================================================================== From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Jun 17 15:24:14 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF59EE@exchange.epr.com> MPEG: as an MPEG member, you know about the bitstream exchanges. M4IF: please see http://www.m4if.org/public/interop . It takes the thing beyond bitstreams to MP4 files and streaming tests. ISMA: I hope someone from ISMA can answer this question. And then there is the likes of 3GPP (which M4IF will start doing cross-testing with shortly). Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: iole moccagatta [mailto:imoccaga@lsil.com] > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2023 13:55 > To: AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > Cc: Iole Moccagatta; m4if tech notes > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > > > Olivier, > > AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN wrote: > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Can you detail a bit more what is the objectiv of this > project wrt other > > activities in MPEG, M4IF, ISMA ? I can not find it on the > Newsgroup and > > I am a bit reluctant to joint yami (yet another MPEG-4 > interoperability) > > activity if this can be done in one of the existing group. > > > > can you please list the activities going on in MPEG, M4IF, > and ISMA that > are related to MPEG-4 interoperability ? > > Regards, > > Iole > > > > > > > > > -- > > ============================================================== > ================ > = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. > = > = > = > = LSI Logic e-mail: > iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = > = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: > +1.408.954-3101 = > = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: > +1.408.954-3599 = > = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com > = > = > = > = > = > = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera > astranavis = > = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos > alienos novos, = > = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo > iverit = > = ante." > = > = > = > ============================================================== > ================ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From boris envivio.com Mon Jun 17 15:57:25 2002 From: boris envivio.com (Boris Felts) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF59EE@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: ISMA is definining a conformance test procedures for ISMA1.0 and organizes regularly plug-fests to check the interoperability between all the members. http://ism-alliance.tv/html/events/comm-mtg.shtml Boris > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Rob Koenen > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2023 2:24 PM > To: 'iole moccagatta'; AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > Cc: Iole Moccagatta; m4if tech notes > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > MPEG: as an MPEG member, you know about the bitstream exchanges. > M4IF: please see http://www.m4if.org/public/interop . It takes the > thing beyond bitstreams to MP4 files and streaming tests. > ISMA: I hope someone from ISMA can answer this question. > > And then there is the likes of 3GPP (which M4IF will start doing > cross-testing with shortly). > > Rob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: iole moccagatta [mailto:imoccaga@lsil.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2023 13:55 > > To: AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN > > Cc: Iole Moccagatta; m4if tech notes > > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > > > > > > > > Olivier, > > > > AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN wrote: > > > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > > > Can you detail a bit more what is the objectiv of this > > project wrt other > > > activities in MPEG, M4IF, ISMA ? I can not find it on the > > Newsgroup and > > > I am a bit reluctant to joint yami (yet another MPEG-4 > > interoperability) > > > activity if this can be done in one of the existing group. > > > > > > > can you please list the activities going on in MPEG, M4IF, > > and ISMA that > > are related to MPEG-4 interoperability ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Iole > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ============================================================== > > ================ > > = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. > > = > > = > > = > > = LSI Logic e-mail: > > iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = > > = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: > > +1.408.954-3101 = > > = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: > > +1.408.954-3599 = > > = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com > > = > > = > > = > > = > > = > > = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera > > astranavis = > > = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos > > alienos novos, = > > = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo > > iverit = > > = ante." > > = > > = > > = > > ============================================================== > > ================ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From khuber sorenson.com Mon Jun 17 18:15:27 2002 From: khuber sorenson.com (Kris Huber) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: GMC concept Message-ID: <70A238C106788B49A1B7B46C050DEDFE228E8F@pandora.sorenson.com> Hi Kasturi, > Also I was wondering if this equation corresponds to a zoom-in. > X=0.5i + W/4; Y=0.5j + H/4 without change in shape. Yes, according to my understanding it is a zoom-in. This assumes that (i,j) are coordinates of the current frame, (X, Y) are coordinates of the reference frame, and that both are in the same units of full-pixel samples. In that case the zoom would be a very fast one (a factor of 2 enlargement in a single frame). The offset would keep the picture center unchanged for that amount of zoom. Regards, Kris From xhjin hf.tvia.com Tue Jun 18 09:36:49 2002 From: xhjin hf.tvia.com (XiangHua Jin) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] total playback time of mp4 In-Reply-To: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF59B6@exchange.epr.com> Message-ID: <000b01c21660$3bbe3d70$5802a8c0@hf.tvia.com> Hello everyone: Do you know how to calculate the total playback time of a mp4 file? Pls give a hint. Regards --Xianghua -----Original Message----- From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if. org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen Sent: 2002?6?17? 13:31 To: 'Ansari M N'; Rob Koenen; 'AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN'; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Ansi, We are (Olivier is) looking into the MPEG-4 Systems Bitstream issue. > Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The first > thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I visited > mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 audio > streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could > find there. I guess you mean m4if.org There are only links on m4if.org by the way, we don not host streams ourselves. > Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source code > from the same site. I managed to compile it > successfully. To run n check its performance I need a > mpeg4 sys file as its input. > I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from websites > Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. > The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n gives > an error like "Invalid Url" I do not know which source code you are referring to. We don't host any on our own site, as I mentioned Please be more precise. mp4 files can be found, for instance, here http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/ http://www.envivio.com/solutions/etv/sample.jsp (If anyone knows of other mp4 files, let me know. We are making an overview of links to MP4 content for the Resources Page) Rob _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From jsshin mpegsolutions.com Tue Jun 18 11:02:53 2002 From: jsshin mpegsolutions.com (Jae-Seob Shin) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing References: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DB37@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> <3D0E4C9F.589C736F@lsil.com> Message-ID: <003501c21663$e0748060$6e00a8c0@mail.mpegsolutions.com> Dear Iole and all, Hi, Iole ! As far as interoperability is concerned, M4IF are doing bitstream interoperability test for all possible MPEG-4 profiles such as System, Audio, and Visual. And, we are now in the 4th round of interoperability test including Streaming test. Please join to Interoperability WG, if you are interesting in interoperability test in M4IF. Thank you, Best regards, Jae-Seob, -------------------------------------------------------------- Jae-Seob Shin Tel : +82 2 365 4462 Fax : +82 2 393 4467 Email: jsshin@mpegsolutions.com Rm 246B 2F YonSei Engineering B/D, YonSei Univ. 134 Sinchon-Dong, Seodaemun-Gu, Seoul, 120-749 KOREA -------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "iole moccagatta" To: "AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN" Cc: "Iole Moccagatta" ; "m4if tech notes" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2023 5:54 AM Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing > > > Olivier, > > AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN wrote: > > > Hi Pradeep, > > > > Can you detail a bit more what is the objectiv of this project wrt other > > activities in MPEG, M4IF, ISMA ? I can not find it on the Newsgroup and > > I am a bit reluctant to joint yami (yet another MPEG-4 interoperability) > > activity if this can be done in one of the existing group. > > > > can you please list the activities going on in MPEG, M4IF, and ISMA that > are related to MPEG-4 interoperability ? > > Regards, > > Iole > > > > > > > > > -- > > ============================================================================== > = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = > = = > = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = > = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = > = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = > = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = > = = > = = > = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = > = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = > = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = > = ante." = > = = > ============================================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From rkoenen intertrust.com Mon Jun 17 19:10:36 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5A05@exchange.epr.com> > Please join to Interoperability WG, if you are interesting in > interoperability test in M4IF. THen first join M4IF :-) http://www.m4if.org/join.php Rob From manystreamspk yahoo.com Mon Jun 17 19:12:33 2002 From: manystreamspk yahoo.com (Pradeep Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] total playback time of mp4 In-Reply-To: <000b01c21660$3bbe3d70$5802a8c0@hf.tvia.com> Message-ID: <20020618011233.25996.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Xia Which player are you using ? If you are using the Real networks player, it shows the playback time. PK --- XiangHua Jin wrote: > Hello everyone: > > Do you know how to calculate the total playback > time of a mp4 file? > Pls give a hint. > > Regards > > --Xianghua > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if. > org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen > Sent: 2002ÇŻ6·î17Ĉü 13:31 > To: 'Ansari M N'; Rob Koenen; 'AVARO Olivier > FTRD/DIH/REN'; > technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > Ansi, > > We are (Olivier is) looking into the MPEG-4 Systems > Bitstream issue. > > > Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The > first > > thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I > visited > > mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 > audio > > streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could > > find there. > > I guess you mean m4if.org > There are only links on m4if.org by the way, we don > not > host streams ourselves. > > > Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source > code > > from the same site. I managed to compile it > > successfully. To run n check its performance I > need a > > mpeg4 sys file as its input. > > I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from > websites > > Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. > > The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n > gives > > an error like "Invalid Url" > > I do not know which source code you are referring > to. > We don't host any on our own site, as I mentioned > Please be more precise. > > mp4 files can be found, for instance, here > > http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/ > http://www.envivio.com/solutions/etv/sample.jsp > (If anyone knows of other mp4 files, let me know. > We are making an overview of links to MP4 content > for the > Resources Page) > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes ===== Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From manystreamspk yahoo.com Mon Jun 17 19:13:59 2002 From: manystreamspk yahoo.com (Pradeep Kumar) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Message-ID: <20020618011359.65284.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> 1. Which are the popular ( bug free ) MPEG 4 Encoders ? 2. Which of the above are freely available ? -PK ===== Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From xhjin hf.tvia.com Tue Jun 18 10:26:44 2002 From: xhjin hf.tvia.com (XiangHua Jin) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:14 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] total playback time of mp4 In-Reply-To: <20020618011233.25996.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c21667$35414df0$5802a8c0@hf.tvia.com> sorry, I am not describe my problem clearly. Now, I debug iso mpeg-4 im1-2d player(reference source code), add some function, such as display the total playback time on player interface. Regards --XH -----Original Message----- From: Pradeep Kumar [mailto:manystreamspk@yahoo.com] Sent: 2002Äê6ÔÂ18ÈĠ 9:13 To: XiangHua Jin; technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] total playback time of mp4 Hi Xia Which player are you using ? If you are using the Real networks player, it shows the playback time. PK --- XiangHua Jin wrote: > Hello everyone: > > Do you know how to calculate the total playback > time of a mp4 file? > Pls give a hint. > > Regards > > --Xianghua > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if. > org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen > Sent: 2002ÇŻ6·î17Ĉü 13:31 > To: 'Ansari M N'; Rob Koenen; 'AVARO Olivier > FTRD/DIH/REN'; > technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** > > Ansi, > > We are (Olivier is) looking into the MPEG-4 Systems > Bitstream issue. > > > Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The > first > > thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I > visited > > mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 > audio > > streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could > > find there. > > I guess you mean m4if.org > There are only links on m4if.org by the way, we don > not > host streams ourselves. > > > Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source > code > > from the same site. I managed to compile it > > successfully. To run n check its performance I > need a > > mpeg4 sys file as its input. > > I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from > websites > > Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. > > The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n > gives > > an error like "Invalid Url" > > I do not know which source code you are referring > to. > We don't host any on our own site, as I mentioned > Please be more precise. > > mp4 files can be found, for instance, here > > http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/ > http://www.envivio.com/solutions/etv/sample.jsp > (If anyone knows of other mp4 files, let me know. > We are making an overview of links to MP4 content > for the > Resources Page) > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes ===== Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From Christoph.Stadler dynapel.de Tue Jun 18 10:46:29 2002 From: Christoph.Stadler dynapel.de (Christoph Stadler) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:15 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: <20020618011359.65284.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D0EE555.F41E473B@dynapel.de> Pradeep Kumar wrote: > > 1. Which are the popular ( bug free ) MPEG 4 Encoders > ? > > 2. Which of the above are freely available ? > > -PK > Why should a "bug free" MPEG-4 encoder be freely available ? ;-) From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Tue Jun 18 11:51:16 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG 4 Testing Message-ID: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DB88@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> Dear Iole, > can you please list the activities going on in MPEG, M4IF, > and ISMA that > are related to MPEG-4 interoperability ? I guess you got your answer ... More details on MPEG, there is an AHG on Systems/Audio/Video conformance and bitstream exchange. The mandate for Systems is below and everybody can join : N4870 Ad Hoc Group on MPEG-4 Conformance Mandate: 1. Complete cross-checking of existing streams. 2. Conduct the discussions on 14496-4. 3. Produce conformant bitstream for the profile@levels included in ISO/IEC 14496-1 and check if they exercise all the functionality of the said profile@level. Chair: Jean-Claude Dufourd (ENST), Yuval Fisher (Envivio), Laurent Herrmann (Philips), Michelle Kim (IBM) Duration: Until next meeting Meetings No Meeting Reflector: Cbex-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu Subscribe Subscription: send message to Majordomo@advent.ee.columbia.edu with the command < subscribe cbex-sys *your e-mail address* in the body of the message. There is a bid database of streams accesible for MPEG members. We are evaluating the possibility to make it available to the industry but this is not straighforward wit ISO. cu, O. From chl math.uni-bonn.de Tue Jun 18 11:31:23 2002 From: chl math.uni-bonn.de (Christoph Lampert) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <3D0EE555.F41E473B@dynapel.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Christoph Stadler wrote: > Pradeep Kumar wrote: > > > > 1. Which are the popular ( bug free ) MPEG 4 Encoders > > ? > > > > 2. Which of the above are freely available ? > > Why should a "bug free" MPEG-4 encoder be freely available ? There is so such thing as a bug-free non trivial software (and I think we can consider a working MPEG-4 encoder "non trivial"). But maybe your questions can be answered with the free reference implementations which are available at ISO? Christoph -- Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jun 18 08:32:10 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5A19@exchange.epr.com> Thanks Cristoph. Some more stuff can be found http://www.m4if.org/resources.php Look under "Tools". Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Christoph Lampert [mailto:chl@math.uni-bonn.de] > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2023 1:31 > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders > > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Christoph Stadler wrote: > > > Pradeep Kumar wrote: > > > > > > 1. Which are the popular ( bug free ) MPEG 4 Encoders > > > ? > > > > > > 2. Which of the above are freely available ? > > > > Why should a "bug free" MPEG-4 encoder be freely available ? > > There is so such thing as a bug-free non trivial software > (and I think we > can consider a working MPEG-4 encoder "non trivial"). > > But maybe your questions can be answered with the free reference > implementations which are available at ISO? > > Christoph > > -- > Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature > wurde maschi- > Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf > Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner > Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From ben interframemedia.com Tue Jun 18 10:24:44 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Christoph, Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview includes pretty good Simple, Advanced Simple (without B-frames), and AAC codecs. It's $29.95 or so for the "Pro" license key, but that's still pretty darn cheap! For those who will be there, I'm doing a session at the M4IF conference in San Jose next week, all about the current generations of encoders and decoders. Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html on 6/18/02 1:31 AM, Christoph Lampert at chl@math.uni-bonn.de wrote: > There is so such thing as a bug-free non trivial software (and I think we > can consider a working MPEG-4 encoder "non trivial"). > > But maybe your questions can be answered with the free reference > implementations which are available at ISO? From jpt okstate.edu Tue Jun 18 13:25:06 2002 From: jpt okstate.edu (Johnson P Thomas/comsc/cas/Okstate) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** Message-ID: Hello I am looking for any MPEG-4 codecs that have been interfaced to a network simulator such as ns. I also want to be able to specify or prioritize objects within a video scene before it is transmitted through the network. I also want to view the transmitted video. Does anyone know of any such systems? Thanks Johnson Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020618/90ec1a58/attachment.html From imoccaga lsil.com Tue Jun 18 12:00:58 2002 From: imoccaga lsil.com (iole moccagatta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: Message-ID: <3D0F7559.E2FBCB86@lsil.com> Ben, Ben Waggoner wrote: > Christoph, > > Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview includes pretty good Simple, Advanced > > Simple (without B-frames), and AAC codecs. -- > does the Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview Advanced Simple include GMC, 1/4 pel MC, and interlaced decoding tools ? Regards, Iole > > > > ============================================================================== > = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = > = = > = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = > = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = > = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = > = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = > = = > = = > = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = > = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = > = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = > = ante." = > = = > ============================================================================== > From ben interframemedia.com Tue Jun 18 12:36:07 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <3D0F7559.E2FBCB86@lsil.com> Message-ID: Iole, AFAIK, yes on GMC and 1/4 pel. The encoder doesn't do interlaced, although the decoder might. QT6's MPEG-4 support targets the ISMA profiles, which don't include interlaced. Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html on 6/18/02 11:00 AM, iole moccagatta at imoccaga@lsil.com wrote: > does the Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview Advanced Simple include GMC, 1/4 > pel MC, and interlaced decoding tools ? From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jun 18 12:40:05 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5A3F@exchange.epr.com> Interlace is not in the lower levels of Advanced Simple. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Waggoner [mailto:ben@interframemedia.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2023 11:36 > To: m4if tech notes > Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders > > > Iole, > > AFAIK, yes on GMC and 1/4 pel. The encoder doesn't do interlaced, > although the decoder might. QT6's MPEG-4 support targets the > ISMA profiles, > which don't include interlaced. > > Ben Waggoner > Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding > > Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html > My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm > Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm > > Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: > http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html > > > > on 6/18/02 11:00 AM, iole moccagatta at imoccaga@lsil.com wrote: > > > does the Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview Advanced Simple > include GMC, 1/4 > > pel MC, and interlaced decoding tools ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From PigsOnTheWing mac.com Tue Jun 18 15:46:12 2002 From: PigsOnTheWing mac.com (Jay W. McGuire) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/18/02 12:24 PM, "Ben Waggoner" wrote: > Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview includes pretty good Simple, Advanced > Simple (without B-frames), and AAC codecs. I'm an audiophile and am planning to buy Apple's new Xserve w/480GB of file space to store all of my CD audio files. Can anyone tell me if there's any advantage, besides reclaiming additional storage space, to going with AAC over WAV files? I'm interested in the best possible sound quality and have been using Monkey's Audio (lossless) on the PC but, so far, there is no support for APE files on the Mac. I listen to music constantly and am also concerned about what kind of stress that puts on a computer. Since AAC files would be much smaller than WAVs or APEs, will they result in less stress (thru less frequent/smaller reads?) on my hard drives? I'm playing around with QuickTime 6 right now and have made a couple of AAC files. I'm a bit confused as to what kind of settings I should be using, though. Like I said, I want the best possible sound quality, so does that mean I should be encoding at 256kbits/second (the highest QT6 will go)? Also, do I want to select any of the streaming options? I'd be accessing the Xserve's AAC files from one or more Macs located around the house, but that's not streaming, right? And what about the setting for 'ISMA' compatibility? Do I want/need that if I'm not streaming? And what about "tags?" Any attempts I make to enter "Artist," "Album," "Full Name," "Copyright," "Track," etc., result in only the "Copyright" information being kept after the file is saved. Is this a limitation of the "Public Preview" for QuickTime 6? Or are these things not supported in an AAC file? Who's code is being used by QT6? I think I read somewhere that it was from Dolby? Is this true? Is any one implementation better than another? I hear a lot of talk about a "Psytel" encoder on the PC. Is its AAC encoding any better or worse than QT6's AAC? I tried to play the Psytel demos on the author's site with QT6...all I got was silence. Are there compatibility problems when going from one encoder to another? I used LAME at its highest 320k setting to create MP3s before I decided to store uncompressed WAVs and/or use the lossless Monkey's Audio compressor for best possible sound quality. Will I be happy with the quality of AAC? Is it really as good as they say? Or should I stick with WAVs or wait until someone comes up with a Monkey's Audio decoder/player for the Mac? Sorry for all the questions! I'm a real newbie on this AAC stuff! Regards, Jay From ben interframemedia.com Tue Jun 18 13:26:14 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 6/18/02 11:46 AM, Jay W. McGuire at PigsOnTheWing@mac.com wrote: > I'm an audiophile and am planning to buy Apple's new Xserve w/480GB of file > space to store all of my CD audio files. Can anyone tell me if there's any > advantage, besides reclaiming additional storage space, to going with AAC > over WAV files? I'm interested in the best possible sound quality and have > been using Monkey's Audio (lossless) on the PC but, so far, there is no > support for APE files on the Mac. I listen to music constantly and am also > concerned about what kind of stress that puts on a computer. Since AAC files > would be much smaller than WAVs or APEs, will they result in less stress > (thru less frequent/smaller reads?) on my hard drives? AAC can deliver great quality, but it isn't a lossless codec. I suppose lower data rates would mean slightly less drive wear, but probably not enough to fret over. Myself, my jukebox is 130 GB of 320 Kbps MP3 files, which is overkill. I probably would have gone with lossless, except the integration and ease of use of iTunes is just so phenomenal. > I'm playing around with QuickTime 6 right now and have made a couple of AAC > files. I'm a bit confused as to what kind of settings I should be using, > though. Like I said, I want the best possible sound quality, so does that > mean I should be encoding at 256kbits/second (the highest QT6 will go)? > Also, do I want to select any of the streaming options? I'd be accessing the > Xserve's AAC files from one or more Macs located around the house, but > that's not streaming, right? And what about the setting for 'ISMA' > compatibility? Do I want/need that if I'm not streaming? And what about > "tags?" Any attempts I make to enter "Artist," "Album," "Full Name," > "Copyright," "Track," etc., result in only the "Copyright" information being > kept after the file is saved. Is this a limitation of the "Public Preview" > for QuickTime 6? Or are these things not supported in an AAC file? Beyond 128 Kbps, you are very unlikely to be able to tell the difference between source and output with AAC (like 256 Kbps MP3). I encoder higher because I use my archive as a master to converting to other formats, so even imperceptible errors can cause generation loss, which I want to minimize. > Who's code is being used by QT6? I think I read somewhere that it was from > Dolby? Is this true? Is any one implementation better than another? I hear a > lot of talk about a "Psytel" encoder on the PC. Is its AAC encoding any > better or worse than QT6's AAC? I tried to play the Psytel demos on the > author's site with QT6...all I got was silence. Are there compatibility > problems when going from one encoder to another? Dolby is a principle creator of AAC. Apple may very well have licensed it from them. I don't know that there is a significant difference in AAC encoders from different vendors, like there used to be with MP3. > I used LAME at its highest 320k setting to create MP3s before I decided to > store uncompressed WAVs and/or use the lossless Monkey's Audio compressor > for best possible sound quality. Will I be happy with the quality of AAC? Is > it really as good as they say? Or should I stick with WAVs or wait until > someone comes up with a Monkey's Audio decoder/player for the Mac? You'll need to do some tests yourself to see what your preferences are. I'd think high bitrate AAC should be just fine for listening. My hope is that .MP4 AAC audio files will eventually displace MP3. Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html From imoccaga lsil.com Tue Jun 18 14:34:32 2002 From: imoccaga lsil.com (iole moccagatta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: Message-ID: <3D0F9958.F13D2380@lsil.com> Ben, Ben Waggoner wrote: > Iole, > > AFAIK, yes on GMC and 1/4 pel. The encoder doesn't do interlaced, > although the decoder might. QT6's MPEG-4 support targets the ISMA profiles, > which don't include interlaced. > thanks for the info. Are ISMA profiles publicly available ? If so, how can I get them? Regards, Iole ============================================================================== = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = = = = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = = = = = = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = = ante." = = = ============================================================================== From ben interframemedia.com Tue Jun 18 15:39:00 2002 From: ben interframemedia.com (Ben Waggoner) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <3D0F9958.F13D2380@lsil.com> Message-ID: on 6/18/02 1:34 PM, iole moccagatta at imoccaga@lsil.com wrote: > thanks for the info. Are ISMA profiles publicly available ? If so, how can I > get > them? http://ism-alliance.tv/html/resources/techspecs.shtml Not free, but cheap. Ben Waggoner Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html From neff PacketVideo.COM Tue Jun 18 15:37:10 2002 From: neff PacketVideo.COM (Ralph Neff) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Message-ID: <72263E8E8622D611975C0002B32C19D837EA3F@misty.packetvideo.com> Iole, ISMA members get the specification for free. Non-members are supposed to purchase it from the ISMA site ($150 for electronic version + company-wide license) See: http://ism-alliance.tv/html/resources/techspecs.shtml -Ralph -----Original Message----- From: iole moccagatta [mailto:imoccaga@lsil.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2023 1:35 PM To: Ben Waggoner Cc: m4if tech notes Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Ben, Ben Waggoner wrote: > Iole, > > AFAIK, yes on GMC and 1/4 pel. The encoder doesn't do interlaced, > although the decoder might. QT6's MPEG-4 support targets the ISMA profiles, > which don't include interlaced. > thanks for the info. Are ISMA profiles publicly available ? If so, how can I get them? Regards, Iole ============================================================================ == = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = = = = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = = = = = = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = = ante." = = = ============================================================================ == _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From jan.devos 3ivx.com Wed Jun 19 02:00:45 2002 From: jan.devos 3ivx.com (Jan Devos) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:17 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <3D0F7559.E2FBCB86@lsil.com> Message-ID: <38A503AA-830F-11D6-BCBC-00306563CD28@3ivx.com> I have not been able to produce Apple MPEG-4 encoded files that use GMC and/or Quarter Pel nor found any of them on Apple's MPEG-4 Demo page. Could somebody point me to such files or tell me how to encode them? Thanks, Jan Devos On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 08:00 PM, iole moccagatta wrote: > does the Apple's QuickTime 6 Public Preview Advanced Simple include > GMC, 1/4 > pel MC, and interlaced decoding tools ? From rkoenen intertrust.com Tue Jun 18 17:25:02 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5A4D@exchange.epr.com> > Dolby is a principle creator of AAC. Apple may very well have licensed > it from them. I don't know that there is a significant difference in AAC > encoders from different vendors, like there used to be with MP3. Dolby (according to Dolby and I assume also according to an independent evaluation) is a license holder for AAC. Dolby is also a vendor of patent licenses (for Fraunhofer, AT&T, Dolby, Sony, Nokia) and Dolby often ships technology to help getting you going. AAC is and MPEG standard. In the QT6 case, MPEG-4 AAC. There are many different vendors of the technology. MPEG always standardizes the decoder and the bistream syntax, never the encoder. So there is a good chance that there are differences in quality between different encoders. THis is a deliberate strategy. It makes sure thre is interoperability, while there is also room for competition. Competition drives innovation. (MPEG-2 video encoders started out delivering "broadcast quality" at 8 Mbit per second. Today, they use more like in the range of 2-3 Mbit on average in a statmux. The MPEG-2 decoder did not need to be upgraded fo this improvement in encoding quality.) Best, Rob From philg cisco.com Tue Jun 18 18:16:39 2002 From: philg cisco.com (Philip Graham) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <20020618011359.65284.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: www.mpeg4ip.net is a reference design for ISMA 1.0 It is code you need to build. And if you make a product you are responsible for any license fees. It providers a client and a server for Live and VoD. Phil -- Philip Graham Director, Engineering Cisco Technology Center 408-525-4794 philg@cisco.com www.isma.tv / Standards based Internet Protocol Video www.mpeg4ip.net / Open source MPEG4 streaming software "If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space" > -----Original Message----- > From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org > [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org]On Behalf Of Pradeep Kumar > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2023 6:14 PM > To: technotes@lists.m4if.org > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders > > > 1. Which are the popular ( bug free ) MPEG 4 Encoders > ? > > 2. Which of the above are freely available ? > > -PK > > ===== > Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development > Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Tue Jun 18 19:05:15 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Message-ID: does encoder need stuffing macroblock? thank for your help! From dim psytel-research.co.yu Wed Jun 19 13:46:51 2002 From: dim psytel-research.co.yu (Ivan Dimkovic) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: Message-ID: <00ca01c2177e$9f68d140$0100a8c0@hal> > > Who's code is being used by QT6? I think I read somewhere that it was from > Dolby? Is this true? Is any one implementation better than another? I hear a Implementations from different vendors might differ if they are built independently. Situation is almost the same as with MP3 - for example Fraunhofer and Xing MP3 encoders were different in quality. > lot of talk about a "Psytel" encoder on the PC. Is its AAC encoding any > better or worse than QT6's AAC? I tried to play the Psytel demos on the > author's site with QT6...all I got was silence. Are there compatibility > problems when going from one encoder to another? > I suppose this is the MP4 file format issue - Psytel files on www.psytel-research.co.yu/showcase.htm are playable on latest Envivio plug-in for RealPlayer and MPEG4IP player (www.mpeg4ip.net) - on the elementary stream level - encoder is fully ISO compatible. Some of the problems were because Psytel's MP4 files carry 'MPEG-2 AAC LC' object type, and some MPEG-4 decoders won't decode them! It was an issue with envivio player, I am not sure if they fixed that. Now, regarding quality - for MP3 and AAC there are audiophile forums with lot of audio encoding experts - one is www.hydrogenaudio.org > I used LAME at its highest 320k setting to create MP3s before I decided to > store uncompressed WAVs and/or use the lossless Monkey's Audio compressor > for best possible sound quality. Will I be happy with the quality of AAC? Is > it really as good as they say? Or should I stick with WAVs or wait until > someone comes up with a Monkey's Audio decoder/player for the Mac? > AAC is higher quality than MP3 - when good AAC encoder is used. 128 Kb/s AAC is as good as, say, 160 Kb/s MP3. AAC also offers a lot of new features, like - multichannel ability, etc.. Best Regards, ************************************************* Ivan Dimkovic, Technical Manager PsyTEL Research Multimedia Coding Solutions Belgrade Yugoslavia phone: +381 63 264 334 phone: +381 64 11 40 600 fax: +381 11 32 25 275 email: dim@psytel-research.co.yu www: http://www.psytel-research.co.yu ************************************************* This e-mail may contain confidential information which is legally privileged. The information is solely for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us by return e-mail and delete this message. Thank you. From arcangelo.bruna st.com Wed Jun 19 15:15:32 2002 From: arcangelo.bruna st.com (arcangelo.bruna@st.com) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes: they are needed to avoid the decoder video buffer underflow. I do not think that it is the best way to avoid such the problem, but it is the only way to perform the stuffing bits, i.e., in the simple profile. Bye, Arcangelo. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [M4IF Technotes] (no subject) Author: wuks (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) at internet Date: 18/06/2023 12:05 does encoder need stuffing macroblock? thank for your help! _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From PigsOnTheWing mac.com Wed Jun 19 15:26:35 2002 From: PigsOnTheWing mac.com (Jay W. McGuire) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders In-Reply-To: <3D10B2E0.3E254949@parthus.com> Message-ID: Stephen, > Please remember we are talking about audiophile quality here - this was > the context of the original question. For mass market consumption, > listening over a mass market PC soundcard with cheap speakers, etc. - > sure, the output is indistinguishable. But if you invest in a good audio > playback system, then there is absolutely a noticeable difference. Yes, we're definitely talking "audiophile quality" as goal. I would be installing a 24bit/96kHz sound card with digital outputs (toslink/coaxial) on the Xserve and feeding signal to high-end equipment for main listening room. Sure, my teenage daughter would probably just use her iMac's own external speakers in her room, but serious music listening would be dedicated to serious audio equipment. > Subject to the usual provisos about what you are looking for, quality of > playback system, etc. etc., there is definitely a noticeable difference > between source and AAC at 128 or even 256. So would you stick with uncompressed WAVs? I had thought that reading a 50 or 60 MB WAV might put more stress on the hardware than a 5 or 6 MB AAC file would. But if that's not the case, or nothing to be concerned about, then the only real advantage to AAC would be reclaimed file space. The Xserve currently tops out at 420 GB of storage. Using uncompressed WAVs, that's around 1,000 CDs or so which could fit onto an Xserve. I've probably got around 700-800 CDs right now. I guess I could just add another Xserve or wait for larger hard drives from Apple if I ever got to the point where I was going to go beyond 1,000 CDs. Course, I'm screwed if I ever decide DVD-Audio is the only way to go! ;-) Regards, Jay From edsmedia alum.mit.edu Wed Jun 19 21:11:27 2002 From: edsmedia alum.mit.edu (Eric Scheirer) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: <3D10B2E0.3E254949@parthus.com> Message-ID: <006501c217ef$18c9dbe0$0201a8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> Hi Stephen, I can't argue with your perceptions of what you've encoded, particularly if you are going as far as doing your own double-blind tests. However, I should point out that in MPEG's verification tests of AAC, AAC at 128 kbps stereo met the European Broadcast Union's definition of "indistinguishable quality", and in fact was statistically indistinguishable from the original in 8 of 10 critical listening examples. This was an extremely rigorous double-blind test, with top-quality studio sound equipment, controlled-geometry listening rooms, expert golden-ears listeners, and the most critical stimuli MPEG could collect. An independent replication subsequently published in J. Audio Eng. Soc. (Feb 2000, IIRC) found the same. I must wonder if there are issues with the encoder you're using. From my perspective (I was the statistical analyst on the MPEG verification test) properly-encoded AAC should not contain audible artefacts for any normal (non-pathological) signal in any normal listening environment. The listening test report is in MPEG document w2006, found at http://www.tnt.uni-hannover.de/project/mpeg/audio/public/w2006.html Best, -- Eric ---- Eric D. Scheirer, Ph.D. edsmedia@alum.mit.edu +1 617 666 8905 http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen McGrath" To: "Ben Waggoner" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2023 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders > Hello, everyone. > > I beg to differ on the statements made here about lossy codec quality, > particularly about AAC at 128k. Subject to the usual provisos about what > you are looking for, quality of playback system, etc. etc., there is > definitely a noticeable difference between source and AAC at 128 or even > 256. > > Please remember we are talking about audiophile quality here - this was > the context of the original question. For mass market consumption, > listening over a mass market PC soundcard with cheap speakers, etc. - > sure, the output is indistinguishable. But if you invest in a good audio > playback system, then there is absolutely a noticeable difference. I am > not claiming that everyone will hear it, but I am claiming that trained > listeners and/or audiophiles will. "Trained listener" here does not > necessarily mean someone who does this professionally, just someone who > has listened often enough that they come to realize what they are > hearing and recognize the distortions. > > Which is fine, there is nothing wrong with this. This is why there is a > much larger market for $400 bookshelf audio systems than for audiophile > gear. To each his needs. Just don't claim there is no difference! > > I can personally back this from 15 years of working in speech and audio > compression, and much longer being an audiophile (which appears to be an > incurable disease!) And yes, I have done this through double-blind > testing. Many times. Repeatably. :-) > > Stephen > > Ben Waggoner wrote: > > > > on 6/18/02 11:46 AM, Jay W. McGuire at PigsOnTheWing@mac.com wrote: > > > > > I'm an audiophile and am planning to buy Apple's new Xserve w/480GB of file > > > space to store all of my CD audio files. Can anyone tell me if there's any > > > advantage, besides reclaiming additional storage space, to going with AAC > > > over WAV files? I'm interested in the best possible sound quality and have > > > been using Monkey's Audio (lossless) on the PC but, so far, there is no > > > support for APE files on the Mac. I listen to music constantly and am also > > > concerned about what kind of stress that puts on a computer. Since AAC files > > > would be much smaller than WAVs or APEs, will they result in less stress > > > (thru less frequent/smaller reads?) on my hard drives? > > > > AAC can deliver great quality, but it isn't a lossless codec. I suppose > > lower data rates would mean slightly less drive wear, but probably not > > enough to fret over. > > Myself, my jukebox is 130 GB of 320 Kbps MP3 files, which is overkill. I > > probably would have gone with lossless, except the integration and ease of > > use of iTunes is just so phenomenal. > > > > > I'm playing around with QuickTime 6 right now and have made a couple of AAC > > > files. I'm a bit confused as to what kind of settings I should be using, > > > though. Like I said, I want the best possible sound quality, so does that > > > mean I should be encoding at 256kbits/second (the highest QT6 will go)? > > > Also, do I want to select any of the streaming options? I'd be accessing the > > > Xserve's AAC files from one or more Macs located around the house, but > > > that's not streaming, right? And what about the setting for 'ISMA' > > > compatibility? Do I want/need that if I'm not streaming? And what about > > > "tags?" Any attempts I make to enter "Artist," "Album," "Full Name," > > > "Copyright," "Track," etc., result in only the "Copyright" information being > > > kept after the file is saved. Is this a limitation of the "Public Preview" > > > for QuickTime 6? Or are these things not supported in an AAC file? > > > > Beyond 128 Kbps, you are very unlikely to be able to tell the difference > > between source and output with AAC (like 256 Kbps MP3). I encoder higher > > because I use my archive as a master to converting to other formats, so even > > imperceptible errors can cause generation loss, which I want to minimize. > > > > > Who's code is being used by QT6? I think I read somewhere that it was from > > > Dolby? Is this true? Is any one implementation better than another? I hear a > > > lot of talk about a "Psytel" encoder on the PC. Is its AAC encoding any > > > better or worse than QT6's AAC? I tried to play the Psytel demos on the > > > author's site with QT6...all I got was silence. Are there compatibility > > > problems when going from one encoder to another? > > > > Dolby is a principle creator of AAC. Apple may very well have licensed > > it from them. I don't know that there is a significant difference in AAC > > encoders from different vendors, like there used to be with MP3. > > > > > I used LAME at its highest 320k setting to create MP3s before I decided to > > > store uncompressed WAVs and/or use the lossless Monkey's Audio compressor > > > for best possible sound quality. Will I be happy with the quality of AAC? Is > > > it really as good as they say? Or should I stick with WAVs or wait until > > > someone comes up with a Monkey's Audio decoder/player for the Mac? > > > > You'll need to do some tests yourself to see what your preferences are. > > I'd think high bitrate AAC should be just fine for listening. > > > > My hope is that .MP4 AAC audio files will eventually displace MP3. > > > > Ben Waggoner > > Compressed Video Consulting, Training, and Encoding > > > > Cleaner Tutorial: http://www.saferseas.com/navseries/adclean.html > > My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm > > Compression Books: http://www.benwaggoner.com/bookshelf.htm > > > > Compression classes at Stanford, July 15-19 and August 12-16: > > http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/courses/videocompress.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > -- > Stephen McGrath phone: +353-1-402-5884 > Technical Director mobile: +353-87-2274612 > Applications Processing Division fax: +353-1-402-5711 > Parthus Technologies Plc., 32-34 Harcourt Street, Dublin 2, Ireland > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk Thu Jun 20 12:28:31 2002 From: byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk (Yan Bo) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about the microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip Message-ID: <200206200328.g5K3SVS11023@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Hi, I am a graduate in the Chinese University of Hong Kong who is working on Mpeg-4. Now I need the Microsoft (MPEG4) Video Reference Software: microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip. Can you give me some suggestions on how to get it? Thank you very much for your time and kindly help. Best Regards! Yan Bo 2023-06-20 Email:byan@cse.cuhk.edu.hk Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering The Chinese University of Hong Kong Shatin, N.T., Hong Kong From gnitin noida.hcltech.com Thu Jun 20 12:32:08 2002 From: gnitin noida.hcltech.com (Nitin Gupta--DSP, Noida) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about the microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip Message-ID: try this link : http://megaera.ee.nctu.edu.tw/mpeg/Ref_Software/cd_software_without_FGS/ Regards, Nitin. -----Original Message----- From: Yan Bo [mailto:byan@cse.cuhk.edu.hk] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2023 8:59 AM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about the microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip Hi, I am a graduate in the Chinese University of Hong Kong who is working on Mpeg-4. Now I need the Microsoft (MPEG4) Video Reference Software: microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip. Can you give me some suggestions on how to get it? Thank you very much for your time and kindly help. Best Regards! Yan Bo 2023-06-20 Email:byan@cse.cuhk.edu.hk Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering The Chinese University of Hong Kong Shatin, N.T., Hong Kong _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From claes.gustavsson popwire.com Thu Jun 20 14:51:28 2002 From: claes.gustavsson popwire.com (Claes Gustavsson) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ES_Descriptor inconsistency. Message-ID: <0E47B5BA-8444-11D6-8B9C-00039364CC3C@popwire.com> Hi all... In the standard ISO/IEC 14496-1:2001(E) I found the following inconsistency of the ES_Descriptor. If you compare the graphical description(GD) (Annex J, page 360) to the text description(TD)(section 8.6.5.1, page 28) of the ES_Descriptor, the 3rd bit after ES_ID in TD is called OCRStreamFlag. In GD it is reserved and set to 1. Which one is the correct description? brgds ********************************************** Popwire Technology Claes Gustavsson Research Engineer claes.gustavsson@popwire.com Kungsbroplan 3A, SE-112 27, Sweden Phone: +46 8-506 667 23 Mobile: +46 733-25 44 23 http://www.popwire.com *********************************************** This message, including any attachments may contain confidential and privileged material; it is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Its contents do not constitute a commitment by Popwire except where provided for in a written and undersigned agreement. From grl iis.fhg.de Thu Jun 20 16:11:42 2002 From: grl iis.fhg.de (Bernhard Grill) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:18 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Suggest some MPEG 4 Encoders References: <3D10B2E0.3E254949@parthus.com> Message-ID: <3D11D48E.4070702@iis.fhg.de> Stephen McGrath wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I beg to differ on the statements made here about lossy codec quality, > particularly about AAC at 128k. Subject to the usual provisos about what > you are looking for, quality of playback system, etc. etc., there is > definitely a noticeable difference between source and AAC at 128 or even > 256. > > Please remember we are talking about audiophile quality here - this was > the context of the original question. For mass market consumption, > listening over a mass market PC soundcard with cheap speakers, etc. - > sure, the output is indistinguishable. But if you invest in a good audio > playback system, then there is absolutely a noticeable difference. I am > not claiming that everyone will hear it, but I am claiming that trained > listeners and/or audiophiles will. "Trained listener" here does not > necessarily mean someone who does this professionally, just someone who > has listened often enough that they come to realize what they are > hearing and recognize the distortions. > > Which is fine, there is nothing wrong with this. This is why there is a > much larger market for $400 bookshelf audio systems than for audiophile > gear. To each his needs. Just don't claim there is no difference! > > I can personally back this from 15 years of working in speech and audio > compression, and much longer being an audiophile (which appears to be an > incurable disease!) And yes, I have done this through double-blind > testing. Many times. Repeatably. :-) Hallo, at 256 kbit/s I'd be interested on what experience the word "definitely" is based on. Even at 128 kbit/s it is extremely difficult to find a few critical items where trained listeners in a perfect environment can reliably detect a difference (see MPEG Document N2006 "Report on the MPEG-2 AAC Stereo Verification Tests";). This of course assumes that you are using a very good encoder, like e.g. the Fraunhofer encoder used in this test :-). A more general remark: All the audio sources out there today have some limitations. Most of these are sometimes more severe than the effects of AAC coding at a reasonably high bitrate, e.g.: CD-Audio: An Audio-CD contains coded music and is lossy. The resolution is limited to 16 bit accuracy at 44.1 kHz. AAC on the other hand can do 48, 96, or 192 kHz sampling rate and is capable to handle dynamic ranges better than 24 bit. So if I'd look for suitable material I'd definitely find that AAC or also MP3 (48 kHz sampling rate, better than 24 bit dynamic range) do much better than CD-Audio for such items. Analog Vinyl Records: The dynamic range is not really impressive and then just consider that low frequencies are attenuated and high frequencies amplified on the records. The inverse filters in the players/amplifiers only roughly invert this process. None of the filters involved in this process have linear phase, so compared to the original there are phase distortions, etc. Analog Tapes: I remember something I did in the early days of MP3. Somebody asked me to send a demo. At this time PCs weren't able to decompress mp3 in realtime and CD-Roms were also almost unknown. The person also didn't have a DAT, so the only remaining possibility was to send an analog tape (OK, it only was a compact casette tape). I used a very expensive studio machine. Listening carefully to the recorded music I noticed there were audible drop-outs on the relatively short sequence. I made several recordings, changed the tape, including trying a second vendor and also tried a second recorder, but I never got a recording without an audible dropout in our relatively perfect listening environment Another thing: Also amplifiers, loudspeakers, (cables -;) ), etc alter the sound (especially the very expensive tube amplifiers which often add an audible hum and other noises to the original sound, not speaking of the slight non-linearities). Altogether AAC has shown a remarkably constant performance over a wide range of different input signals in several independent tests, if good encoders were used. And this is the real tricky part in audio coding: To achieve good performance over the whole range of input signals. All the MPEG-Audio Standards have shown over time that they were designed carefully in this respect. Best regards, Bernhard Grill -- Dr. Bernhard Grill email: grl@iis.fhg.de Head of Audio Department, FhG-IIS A phone: +49 9131 776-351 Am Weichselgarten 3, D-91058 Erlangen, Germany FAX: +49 9131 776-398 From singer apple.com Thu Jun 20 19:24:59 2002 From: singer apple.com (Dave Singer) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] total playback time of mp4 In-Reply-To: <20020618011233.25996.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020618011233.25996.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- XiangHua Jin wrote: >> Hello everyone: >> >> Do you know how to calculate the total playback >> time of a mp4 file? >> Pls give a hint. It's in the duration field of the moov atom in the file? > > >> Regards >> >> --Xianghua >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: technotes-admin@lists.m4if.org >> [mailto:technotes-admin@lists.m4if. >> org] On Behalf Of Rob Koenen >> Sent: 2002??6 ?17?? 13:31 >> To: 'Ansari M N'; Rob Koenen; 'AVARO Olivier >> FTRD/DIH/REN'; >> technotes@lists.m4if.org >> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Help wanted ***** >> >> Ansi, >> >> We are (Olivier is) looking into the MPEG-4 Systems >> Bitstream issue. >> >> > Got ur message and thanx or ur kind concern. The >> first >> > thing I did reg getting mpeg4 streams is, I >> visited >> > mwif.org. But there I found mpeg4 video or mpeg4 >> audio >> > streams only and no mpeg4 system bitstream I could >> > find there. >> >> I guess you mean m4if.org >> There are only links on m4if.org by the way, we don >> not >> host streams ourselves. >> >> > Also I downloaded mppeg4 system decoder source >> code >> > from the same site. I managed to compile it >> > successfully. To run n check its performance I >> need a >> > mpeg4 sys file as its input. >> > I've downloaded some mp4 and mpg4 files from >> websites >> > Also I'm not sure abt its compliance with mpeg4. >> > The downloaded code doesnt accepts this input n >> gives >> > an error like "Invalid Url" >> >> I do not know which source code you are referring >> to. >> We don't host any on our own site, as I mentioned >> Please be more precise. >> >> mp4 files can be found, for instance, here >> >> http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/ >> http://www.envivio.com/solutions/etv/sample.jsp >> (If anyone knows of other mp4 files, let me know. >> We are making an overview of links to MP4 content >> for the >> Resources Page) >> >> Rob >> _______________________________________________ >> Technotes mailing list >> Technotes@lists.m4if.org >> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Technotes mailing list >> Technotes@lists.m4if.org >> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > >===== >Subscibe and build MPEG 4 Testing and Development >Community.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MPEG4TESTERS/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Technotes mailing list >Technotes@lists.m4if.org >http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- David Singer Apple Computer/QuickTime From sgkim logostek.com Fri Jun 21 11:44:21 2002 From: sgkim logostek.com (Kim, Sunggu) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] bug in source code Message-ID: Suggestion : Minor change needs in momusys Reference software source code. ( in vm_vop_code.c ) if (GetVopPredictionType(curr) == I_VOP) /* I-VOP, SPRITE PIECES */ /* I-VOP */ { if (GetVopPredictionType(curr) == I_VOP && flag_static_sprite_piece!=1) ---> if (flag_static_sprite_piece!=1) Kim, Sunggu ------------------------------------------- Team Manager Ph : +82 - 2 - 3663- 5855 HP : 017-417-2924 Mail : sgkim@logostek.com Home : www.logostek.com -------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1708 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020621/8f7ca476/winmail.bin From olivier.amato laposte.net Fri Jun 21 11:14:10 2002 From: olivier.amato laposte.net (Olivier Amato) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Live MPEG-4 encoders for Windows References: Message-ID: <012f01c218fb$a02607a0$d1360f50@beck> What are the live MPEG-4 encoders ( ISMA compliant ) available right now for Windows ? The products I'm looking for should be interoperable with Darwin Streaming Server. Do MPEG-4 hardware encoding cards already exist ? I'm also looking for an MPEG-4 audio only live encoder for a customer ( AAC or/and CELP, also interoperable with Darwin ). Thanks, Olivier From SSG14 JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU Thu Jun 20 21:31:27 2002 From: SSG14 JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU (SACHIN GANGAPUTRA) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Message-ID: <1e0ef31e3b03.1e3b031e0ef3@jhumail.jhu.edu> Hi, I have a small bug in my implementation of quarter pel compensation and I suspect its something to do with unrestricted motion compensation. In reference to sec 7.6.4 in the standard "...In case of half sample mode, when a sample referenced by a motion vector stays outside the decoded VOP area, an edge sample is used. This edge sample is retrieved by limiting the motion vector to the last full pel position inside the decoded VOP area. Limitation of a motion vector is performed on a sample basis and separately for each component of the motion vector, as depicted in Figure 7-19. In case of quarter sample mode, when a sample needed for interpolation (see subclause 7.6.2.2) stays outside the decoded VOP area, an edge sample is used prior to block boundary mirroring." I'm not sure what the difference between half and quarter is based on this statement. I don't completely understand what the last line implies. Any help in this direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sachin Gangaputra Grad Student, Johns Hopkins UIniversity, Baltimore From DeepaliA improvsys.com Fri Jun 21 11:26:17 2002 From: DeepaliA improvsys.com (Deepali Arya) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Message-ID: <775BE9D2D47B434B8FA092E0980A3A2C033794@improv_server> In both half sample and quarter sample mode, you need one extra pixel value for interpolation - For eg. for generating 16 interpolated pixels, you will need 17 reference pixels. If any of these 17 pixels lies outside the decoded VOP, you need to use the edge pixel to recreate that. In the quarter sample mode, once you have obtained the reference pixels (with edge repeatition if needed), the next step is to mirror the first 3 and the last 3 pixels on each side: For eg. if your 17-pixel row is : a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q Then the mirrored row is: c b a a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q q p o You use this mirrored row for filtering in the quarter sample mode. Hope this helps. -----Original Message----- From: SACHIN GANGAPUTRA [mailto:SSG14@JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2023 11:31 PM To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 quarter-pel motion compensation Hi, I have a small bug in my implementation of quarter pel compensation and I suspect its something to do with unrestricted motion compensation. In reference to sec 7.6.4 in the standard "...In case of half sample mode, when a sample referenced by a motion vector stays outside the decoded VOP area, an edge sample is used. This edge sample is retrieved by limiting the motion vector to the last full pel position inside the decoded VOP area. Limitation of a motion vector is performed on a sample basis and separately for each component of the motion vector, as depicted in Figure 7-19. In case of quarter sample mode, when a sample needed for interpolation (see subclause 7.6.2.2) stays outside the decoded VOP area, an edge sample is used prior to block boundary mirroring." I'm not sure what the difference between half and quarter is based on this statement. I don't completely understand what the last line implies. Any help in this direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sachin Gangaputra Grad Student, Johns Hopkins UIniversity, Baltimore _______________________________________________ Technotes mailing list Technotes@lists.m4if.org http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From khuber sorenson.com Fri Jun 21 20:00:12 2002 From: khuber sorenson.com (Kris Huber) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Constraint on vop_time_increment_resolution obeyed? Message-ID: <70A238C106788B49A1B7B46C050DEDFE228EA4@pandora.sorenson.com> I noticed the following constraint in the text of the MPEG-4 video standard. Near the end of clause 7.7.2.2 about Motion vector decoding in B-VOPs: "When interlaced direct mode is used, vop_time_increment_resolution must be the smallest integer greater than or equal to the number of frames per second." This affects the VOL header. What surprises me is that it seems to exclude the possibility of exactly indicating the time of the source fields, which come at a rate of 1001/60000 = 29.97 Hz * 2. It also seems to impose a quite coarse quantization of the presentation time indicated in the bitstream. For the vast majority of video source available today that's not a problem, but perhaps future devices won't all use the same fixed rates. Please comment. Is there a reason to obey this constraint? Without doing a lot of detailed searching and thinking, I suspect the constraint could be there to simplify direct-mode interpolations or just to save a very small number of bits for the representation of the time. Thanks, Kris From chl math.uni-bonn.de Sat Jun 22 17:53:52 2002 From: chl math.uni-bonn.de (Christoph Lampert) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode Message-ID: Hi, as far as I see from the docs, in 4 motion vectors per MB mode, chroma components are compensation using the average vector of the four motion vectors. Why was it chosen like that? It sound like that's exactly the wrong position, because that might be wrong for _all_ of the four blocks. Also, it makes motion search much more difficult. If would have been logical to either add a fifth vector, or 2 bits to signalize which of the blocks' vector to use, or something similar. Christoph -- Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 From garysull microsoft.com Sun Jun 23 20:21:01 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA1537@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Christoph Lampert [mailto:chl@math.uni-bonn.de] +> as far as I see from the docs, in 4 motion vectors per MB +> mode, chroma +> components are compensation using the average vector of the four +> motion vectors. Something like that. +> Why was it chosen like that? It sound like that's exactly the wrong +> position, because that might be wrong for _all_ of the four blocks. +> Also, it makes motion search much more difficult. Most people don't use chroma at all in the motion search. (Although they would get better quality if they did, given sufficient processing power.) +> If would have been logical to either add a fifth vector, or +> 2 bits to +> signalize which of the blocks' vector to use, or something similar. That might not be worth the extra bits it would cost to send the vector or indication. And it would take extra processing power to determine the values to put in those extra bits. Chroma doesn't usually consume very many bits overall relative to luma and isn't as visually important as luma, so often it is treated as not being very important in a codec design. Chroma tends to take about 10-20% of the total bit rate, so even if you could cut that in half with some better processing method you wouldn't save that much in the overall bit rate. Best Regards, Gary From olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com Mon Jun 24 08:24:18 2002 From: olivier.avaro rd.francetelecom.com (AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ES_Descriptor inconsistency. Message-ID: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DFC1@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From neel2265 yahoo.com Mon Jun 24 01:06:23 2002 From: neel2265 yahoo.com (Neelakanth) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] ES_Descriptor inconsistency. In-Reply-To: <571B06D35309794BA9204B5A090CC10196DFC1@lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr> Message-ID: <20020624070623.48650.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All some days back I had also posted this problem. After seeing most of the available mp4 files, I came to a conclusion that text is correct. But does this made clear in any document. As I understand this is some Pre and Post Corregendum1 problem (if I am wrong Plz do correct me), and I am referring the MPEG4-systems standard "INTERNATIONAL STANDARD ISO/IEC 14496-1,Second edition 2023-10-01". If there are any new documents or any amendments or any errata's please do let me know. If there are any such descrepancies or inconsistencies please let me know. Thanking u all in advance Neel --- AVARO Olivier FTRD/DIH/REN wrote: > The text is the correct description. > cu, > O. > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Claes Gustavsson > [mailto:claes.gustavsson@popwire.com] > > Envoye : jeudi 20 juin 2002 13:51 > > A : technotes@lists.m4if.org > > Objet : [M4IF Technotes] ES_Descriptor > inconsistency. > > > > > > > > Hi all... > > > > > > In the standard ISO/IEC 14496-1:2001(E) I found > the following > > inconsistency of the ES_Descriptor. > > If you compare the graphical description(GD) > (Annex J, page > > 360) to the > > text description(TD)(section 8.6.5.1, page 28) of > the > > ES_Descriptor, the > > 3rd bit after ES_ID in TD is called OCRStreamFlag. > In GD it > > is reserved > > and set to 1. > > Which one is the correct description? > > > > brgds > > > > > > ********************************************** > > Popwire Technology > > Claes Gustavsson > > Research Engineer > > claes.gustavsson@popwire.com > > Kungsbroplan 3A, SE-112 27, Sweden > > > > Phone: +46 8-506 667 23 > > Mobile: +46 733-25 44 23 > > > > http://www.popwire.com > > *********************************************** > > > > This message, including any attachments may > contain confidential and > > privileged material; it is intended only for the > person to whom it is > > addressed. Its contents do not constitute a > commitment by > > Popwire except > > where provided for in a written and undersigned > agreement. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Technotes mailing list > > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk Mon Jun 24 11:19:16 2002 From: byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk (Yan Bo) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about the Mpeg-4 decoder Message-ID: <200206240219.g5O2JIS05012@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Hi, This is a postgraduate from the Chinese University of HongKong. I am very sorry to bother you. But now I have a problem. I am now working on the error resilient tools of Mpeg-4. After testing the Microsoft-fdam1-2.3-001213.zip, I found that the decoder can not decode the bit-streams with errors. That is to say, the decoder will stop working while decoding the streams with errors. Can you give me some suggestions on how to solve it? Thank you very much for your time and kindly help. ĦĦBest Regards! Yan Bo From grl iis.fhg.de Sun Jun 23 19:47:03 2002 From: grl iis.fhg.de (Bernhard Grill) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Live MPEG-4 encoders for Windows References: <012f01c218fb$a02607a0$d1360f50@beck> Message-ID: <3D15FB87.7000707@iis.fhg.de> Olivier Amato wrote: > What are the live MPEG-4 encoders ( ISMA compliant ) available right now for > Windows ? The products I'm looking for should be interoperable with Darwin > Streaming Server. > Do MPEG-4 hardware encoding cards already exist ? > I'm also looking for an MPEG-4 audio only live encoder for a customer ( AAC > or/and CELP, also interoperable with Darwin ). Hallo Oliver, we at Fraunhofer IIS may have all the things you ask for. CELP/HVXC and AAC (all flavours) audio realtime (live) encoding and Simple and Advanced Simple Profile Video, including all Audio and Video ISMA RTP packaging options and RTSP signaling. The encoder is tested on Win32 and Linux but should also run on other Unix versions. Best, Bernhard Grill > Thanks, > > Olivier > > > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes -- Dr. Bernhard Grill email: grl@iis.fhg.de Head of Audio Department, FhG-IIS A phone: +49 9131 776-351 Am Weichselgarten 3, D-91058 Erlangen, Germany FAX: +49 9131 776-398 From chl math.uni-bonn.de Mon Jun 24 13:41:58 2002 From: chl math.uni-bonn.de (Christoph Lampert) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:19 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode In-Reply-To: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA1537@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > +> Why was it chosen like that? It sound like that's exactly the wrong > +> position, because that might be wrong for _all_ of the four blocks. > +> Also, it makes motion search much more difficult. > > Most people don't use chroma at all in the motion search. > (Although they would get better quality if they did, given > sufficient processing power.) Of course, but in 16x16 mode, a good match for lumi is most likely also a good match for 8x8 chroma. In 4MV mode, this is simply not true, unless all 8x8 vectors are very close together. One "better" lumi 8x8 vector changes two 8x8 chroma vectors, maybe to the worse. Unfortunately, the value of chroma depends on all 4 lumi vectors, so it's not possible to search those four independently if chroma is to be considered :-( > +> If would have been logical to either add a fifth vector, or > +> 2 bits to > +> signalize which of the blocks' vector to use, or something similar. > > That might not be worth the extra bits it would cost to send the > vector or indication. And it would take extra processing power to > determine the values to put in those extra bits. Are there any published results on chroma+4MV search? Or even only 4MV search? Any papers? It seems everybody agrees on "chroma is not important" without anyone really checking. > Chroma doesn't usually consume very many bits overall > relative to luma and isn't as visually important as > luma, so often it is treated as not being very important > in a codec design. Chroma tends to take about 10-20% of > the total bit rate, so even if you could cut that in half > with some better processing method you wouldn't save that > much in the overall bit rate. So the answer is: "It was chosen that way, because it does not matter very much". Okay, that's an answer. How's the situation in H26.L? Christoph -- Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 From gchandra tataelxsi.co.in Mon Jun 24 20:04:32 2002 From: gchandra tataelxsi.co.in (Chandra Sekhar Reddy G) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode References: Message-ID: <002e01c21b83$df777990$cc28010a@gchandra> hi, not really completely connected to ME/MC/4MV or MPEG-4, but shows how much is the (less) importance of chroma over luma. just download this JPEG-2000 related publication. http://jj2000.epfl.ch/jj_publications/papers/011.pdf see the slides 30-39. i am sorry, but this document size is of 11MB (eleven MB). chandra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christoph Lampert" To: Sent: Monday, June 24, 2023 4:11 PM Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode > > +> Why was it chosen like that? It sound like that's exactly the wrong > > +> position, because that might be wrong for _all_ of the four blocks. > > +> Also, it makes motion search much more difficult. > > > > Most people don't use chroma at all in the motion search. > > (Although they would get better quality if they did, given > > sufficient processing power.) > > Of course, but in 16x16 mode, a good match for lumi is most > likely also a good match for 8x8 chroma. > In 4MV mode, this is simply not true, unless all 8x8 vectors > are very close together. One "better" lumi 8x8 vector changes > two 8x8 chroma vectors, maybe to the worse. > > Unfortunately, the value of chroma depends on all 4 lumi > vectors, so it's not possible to search those four independently > if chroma is to be considered :-( > > > +> If would have been logical to either add a fifth vector, or > > +> 2 bits to > > +> signalize which of the blocks' vector to use, or something similar. > > > > That might not be worth the extra bits it would cost to send the > > vector or indication. And it would take extra processing power to > > determine the values to put in those extra bits. > > Are there any published results on chroma+4MV search? Or even > only 4MV search? Any papers? It seems everybody agrees on > "chroma is not important" without anyone really checking. > > > Chroma doesn't usually consume very many bits overall > > relative to luma and isn't as visually important as > > luma, so often it is treated as not being very important > > in a codec design. Chroma tends to take about 10-20% of > > the total bit rate, so even if you could cut that in half > > with some better processing method you wouldn't save that > > much in the overall bit rate. > > So the answer is: "It was chosen that way, because it does > not matter very much". Okay, that's an answer. > How's the situation in H26.L? > > Christoph > > -- > Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- > Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf > Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes From chl math.uni-bonn.de Mon Jun 24 17:08:05 2002 From: chl math.uni-bonn.de (Christoph Lampert) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode In-Reply-To: <002e01c21b83$df777990$cc28010a@gchandra> Message-ID: > hi, > > not really completely connected to ME/MC/4MV or MPEG-4, > but shows how much is the (less) importance of chroma over luma. > > just download this JPEG-2000 related publication. > > http://jj2000.epfl.ch/jj_publications/papers/011.pdf > > see the slides 30-39. Interesting paper, thank you for the link. But in YUV 4:2:0 chroma is 1/3 of total uncompressed data, lumi is 2/3. If vectors are chosen such that lumi is compressed better, but chroma isn't (maybe even worse), I can't estimate which ration of the resulting compressed data chroma is. I'd guess it's more than 1/3, because vectors are chosen to minize bits for lumi, not for chroma. I'm not worried about image quality getting worse, because it's true that chroma quality is much less important that lumi. But I'm worried that at a given quantizer the bitstream gets larger than necessary, because chroma is motion compensated using a vector that was never checked to be a good choice for anything. Christoph -- Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 From piccarre mail2.elet.polimi.it Mon Jun 24 18:36:49 2002 From: piccarre mail2.elet.polimi.it (Luca Piccarreta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Audio Reference Software References: <002e01c21b83$df777990$cc28010a@gchandra> Message-ID: <001501c21b94$f4de6300$4b7baf83@piccarreta> Hi, I was testing the reference software (audio), MPEG4-AAC. Main Prediction (the one with Correlation, variance ecc.) and noted that there are differences in the output of Release and Debug versions. These differences are negligible from a human listener point of view (2-3 in 16-bit output), but this may be not pleasant when one is trying to match his decoder to the ref's one. Is there any "audio expert" who wants to discuss about this? The incriminated sequence is am02_44.mp4 and the mismatch seems to be due to the switch "Improve Float Consistency" in the release version (I'm using Visual C++). In my opinion, one could object to the way coefficients are stored in the reference software (and in the specs). The loss of precision is enormous, and I can't think of any reasonable way of doing the whole prediction in integer math. Thanks in advance to anyone who want to discuss about that. Luca Piccarreta. From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jun 24 13:01:24 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA153E@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Christoph Lampert [mailto:chl@math.uni-bonn.de] [...] +> But in YUV 4:2:0 chroma is 1/3 of total uncompressed data, lumi +> is 2/3. +> If vectors are chosen such that lumi is compressed better, +> but chroma isn't (maybe even worse), I can't estimate which ration +> of the resulting compressed data chroma is. I'd guess it's more +> than 1/3, because vectors are chosen to minize bits for lumi, not +> for chroma. It's normally less than 1/3. What matters is not the number of samples to code, it is the statistics of the input samples and what you do with them (this is a very important point that is often neglected in people's thinking). My understanding is that chroma usually takes 10-20%. +> +> I'm not worried about image quality getting worse, because +> it's true that chroma quality is much less important that lumi. +> But I'm worried that at a given quantizer the bitstream gets larger +> than necessary, because chroma is motion compensated using a +> vector that +> was never checked to be a good choice for anything. Actually it is normally better for chroma to be quantized more finely than luma in 4:2:0 content (as for example in the H.263 Annex T and JVT codec designs). But chroma tends to be statistically lower amplitude / more correlated than chroma, so it consumes fewer bits per sample at a given step size. Note that also a little sloppiness in the chroma motion comp can be fixed up by the quantizer. The resulting fidelity is dominated by the quantization step size, not the quality of the motion estimator. Best Regards, Gary Sullivan From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jun 24 13:01:26 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA1542@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Christoph Lampert [mailto:chl@math.uni-bonn.de] +> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2023 3:42 AM +> To: technotes@lists.m4if.org +> Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] Chroma components in inter4v mode +> +> +> So the answer is: "It was chosen that way, because it does +> not matter very much". Okay, that's an answer. Right. +> How's the situation in H26.L? Now that question's more fun. In the new codec (subclauses 9.2.1.4 and 9.2.2.3 of the Joint Committee Draft): 1) The number of motion vectors for chroma is the same as the number of motion vectors for luma (you probably like that). 2) If the luma block size is MxN, the corresponding chroma block size is (M/2)x(N/2). This is to compensate for the difference in resolution between luma and chroma. 3) If the luma motion vectors have 1/4-sample resolution, the chroma MVs have 1/8-sample resolution (again compensating for the difference in resolution). 4) Correspondingly, if the luma MVs have 1/8-sample resolution, the chroma MVs have 1/16-sample resolution. 5) Although the interpolation for luma uses some longer filters, chroma always uses bilinear interpolation. So you will probably like the new design better, although the sloppier interpolation filters (item 5) still reflect some degree of reduction in the priority given to chroma relative to luma. Best Regards, -Gary From imoccaga lsil.com Mon Jun 24 15:53:59 2002 From: imoccaga lsil.com (iole moccagatta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams Message-ID: <3D1794F7.6FEEB101@lsil.com> Dear All, I have one question concerning MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams. I have notice that the MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams start with "short_video_start_marker", while the other MPEG-4 video conformance streams start with "video_object_start_code". However, according to the MPEG-4 spec, the "short_video_start_marker" too should be preceded by a "video_object_start_code". I assume that the decision to start the two set of conformance streams at different level is just a practical one. Should I therefore assume that, in a real situation, the short video header stream should be preceded, among other things, by a video_object_start_code ? Please confirm. Best Regards, Iole -- ============================================================================== = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = = = = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = = = = = = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = = ante." = = = ============================================================================== From garysull microsoft.com Mon Jun 24 17:59:38 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA1556@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> I believe this is a matter of whether the streams contain configuration information or are stand-alone elementary streams. The spec describes both cases (configuration information contained "in-band" and "elementary stream only"). Best Regards, -Gary +> -----Original Message----- +> From: iole moccagatta [mailto:imoccaga@lsil.com] +> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2023 2:54 PM +> To: m4if tech notes +> Cc: Iole Moccagatta +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 short video header +> conformance streams +> +> +> +> Dear All, +> +> I have one question concerning MPEG-4 short video header conformance +> streams. +> +> I have notice that the MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams +> start with "short_video_start_marker", while the other MPEG-4 video +> conformance streams start with "video_object_start_code". +> +> However, according to the MPEG-4 spec, the "short_video_start_marker" +> too should be preceded by a "video_object_start_code". +> +> I assume that the decision to start the two set of +> conformance streams +> at different level is just a practical one. Should I therefore assume +> that, in a real situation, the short video header stream should be +> preceded, among other things, by a video_object_start_code ? +> +> Please confirm. +> +> Best Regards, +> +> Iole +> +> -- +> +> ============================================================= +> ================= +> = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. +> = +> = +> = +> = LSI Logic e-mail: +> iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = +> = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +> +1.408.954-3101 = +> = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +> +1.408.954-3599 = +> = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com +> = +> = +> = +> = +> = +> = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera +> astranavis = +> = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos +> alienos novos, = +> = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo +> nemo iverit = +> = ante." +> = +> = +> = +> ============================================================= +> ================= +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Technotes mailing list +> Technotes@lists.m4if.org +> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes +> From ycchang mmu.edu.my Tue Jun 25 12:51:46 2002 From: ycchang mmu.edu.my (Yoong-Choon Chang) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Header Extension Code (HEC) Message-ID: <008201c21bfb$a1051000$e71a640a@cyber.mmu.edu.my> Dear All: According to my understanding, one of the MPEG-4 simple profile Error Resilient tools is Header Extension Code (HEC). I'm currently using Microsoft MPEG-4 video reference software version Microsoft-FDAM1-2.3-001213. How can I enable or disable the HEC error resilient function in Microsoft-FDAM1-2.3-001213? Many thanks in advance for your help. regards ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yoong-Choon Chang Faculty of Engineering Multimedia University Jalan Multimedia 63100 Cyberjaya Selangor MALAYSIA Tel: +(6) 03-83125333 Fax: +(6) 03-83183029 Email: ycchang@mmu.edu.my Web: www.mmu.edu.my ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020625/f0a347f3/attachment.html From kenny.chen intel.com Tue Jun 25 14:11:15 2002 From: kenny.chen intel.com (Chen, Kenny) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Header Extension Code (HEC) Message-ID: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26C924CC@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> To my knowledge, it will be automatically enabled when error resilience tool is enabled in parameter file. The reference software will automatically add and only add HEC in the second packet of each VOP. Rgds, Ken -----Original Message----- From: Yoong-Choon Chang [mailto:ycchang@mmu.edu.my] Sent: 2002?6?25? 11:52 To: technotes@lists.m4if.org Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Header Extension Code (HEC) Dear All: According to my understanding, one of the MPEG-4 simple profile Error Resilient tools is Header Extension Code (HEC). I'm currently using Microsoft MPEG-4 video reference software version Microsoft-FDAM1-2.3-001213. How can I enable or disable the HEC error resilient function in Microsoft-FDAM1-2.3-001213? Many thanks in advance for your help. regards ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yoong-Choon Chang Faculty of Engineering Multimedia University Jalan Multimedia 63100 Cyberjaya Selangor MALAYSIA Tel: +(6) 03-83125333 Fax: +(6) 03-83183029 Email: ycchang@mmu.edu.my Web: www.mmu.edu.my ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020625/513baa1e/attachment.html From byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk Tue Jun 25 14:23:02 2002 From: byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk (Yan Bo) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] where to get these two ISO/IEC papers? Message-ID: <200206250523.g5P5N1S01077@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Hi, I need the following two papers. 1. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11, N1473, "Adhoc Group on Core Experiment on Error Resilience aspects of Mpeg-4 video, Description of Error Resilience Core Experiments" 2. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 MPEG96/1492, "Revised Error pattern Generation Programs for Core Experiments on Error Resilience". Who can tell me where to download these two documents? Thanks a lot! Yan Bo From ravi_biju yahoo.com Tue Jun 25 06:35:32 2002 From: ravi_biju yahoo.com (Biju Ravindran) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:20 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Intra/Inter Decision on mpeg4 In-Reply-To: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26C924CC@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> Message-ID: <20020625123532.82688.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Which is the best method for deciding the intra/inter decidion in mpeg4 encoder. Is decision based on SAD of luminace alone will give better performance. Which could be the most ideal way of deciding the block in intra or inter. Rgds, ===== ciao, ..ju __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From sps iis.fhg.de Tue Jun 25 16:48:28 2002 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Audio Reference Software References: <002e01c21b83$df777990$cc28010a@gchandra> <001501c21b94$f4de6300$4b7baf83@piccarreta> Message-ID: <3D1874AC.80189EFD@iis.fhg.de> Luca Piccarreta wrote: > > Hi, > I was testing the reference software (audio), MPEG4-AAC. > Main Prediction (the one with Correlation, variance ecc.) > and noted that there are differences in the output of Release > and Debug versions. > These differences are negligible from a human listener point of view > (2-3 in 16-bit output), but this may be not pleasant when one > is trying to match his decoder to the ref's one. > Is there any "audio expert" who wants to discuss about this? > The incriminated sequence is am02_44.mp4 and the mismatch > seems to be due to the switch "Improve Float Consistency" in > the release version (I'm using Visual C++). > In my opinion, one could object to the way coefficients are stored > in the reference software (and in the specs). The loss of precision > is enormous, and I can't think of any reasonable way of doing > the whole prediction in integer math. > Thanks in advance to anyone who want to discuss about that. > Luca Piccarreta. > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes Dear Luca, I assume that you use the "official" reference software available from ISO. This software has been further improved since it was released. I remember that we have also discovered accuracy problems regarding the prediction tool in conjunction with the compiler optimization and that this problem was fixed. Being an MPEG member, you have access to the most recent version of that software. Otherwise, you most likely need to wait until the next edition is issued. Best regards, Ralph -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Wolfsmantel 33 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 335 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020625/f730ab6b/sps.bin From sps iis.fhg.de Tue Jun 25 17:05:01 2002 From: sps iis.fhg.de (Ralph Sperschneider) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: where to get these two ISO/IEC papers? References: <200206250523.g5P5N1S01077@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Message-ID: <3D18788D.C4793C00@iis.fhg.de> Dear Yan, all, Yan Bo wrote: > > Hi, > > I need the following two papers. > 1. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11, N1473, "Adhoc Group on Core Experiment on Error Resilience aspects of Mpeg-4 video, Description of Error Resilience Core Experiments" This is an output paper of the 37th MPEG meeting. It has (according to the resolutions) not been assigned to be published, and is hence accessible to MPEG members only. > 2. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 MPEG96/1492, "Revised Error pattern Generation Programs for Core Experiments on Error Resilience". This is an input paper of the 37th MPEG meeting. It is not available anymore from MPEG, but might be availble from the authors (Toshio Miki, Toshiro Kawahara and Tomoyuki Ohya from NTT DoCoMo). Best regards, Ralph -- Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 Am Wolfsmantel 33 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sps.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 335 bytes Desc: Card for Ralph Sperschneider Url : /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020625/523d5088/sps.bin From imoccaga lsil.com Tue Jun 25 18:09:26 2002 From: imoccaga lsil.com (iole moccagatta) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams References: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA1556@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3D190635.FFF411CE@lsil.com> Gary, Gary Sullivan wrote: > I believe this is a matter of whether the streams > contain configuration information or are stand-alone > elementary streams. The spec describes both cases > (configuration information contained "in-band" and > "elementary stream only"). > Thanks for pointing this out. So now the question is: why one set of video conformance streams, namely the short video header ones, do not start with video_object_start_code, as do all the other ones ? Best Regards, Iole > > Best Regards, > > -Gary > > +> -----Original Message----- > +> From: iole moccagatta [mailto:imoccaga@lsil.com] > +> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2023 2:54 PM > +> To: m4if tech notes > +> Cc: Iole Moccagatta > +> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 short video header > +> conformance streams > +> > +> > +> > +> Dear All, > +> > +> I have one question concerning MPEG-4 short video header conformance > +> streams. > +> > +> I have notice that the MPEG-4 short video header conformance streams > +> start with "short_video_start_marker", while the other MPEG-4 video > +> conformance streams start with "video_object_start_code". > +> > +> However, according to the MPEG-4 spec, the "short_video_start_marker" > +> too should be preceded by a "video_object_start_code". > +> > +> I assume that the decision to start the two set of > +> conformance streams > +> at different level is just a practical one. Should I therefore assume > +> that, in a real situation, the short video header stream should be > +> preceded, among other things, by a video_object_start_code ? > +> > +> Please confirm. > +> > +> Best Regards, > +> > +> Iole > +> > +> -- ============================================================================== = Iole Moccagatta, Ph.D. = = = = LSI Logic e-mail: iole.moccagatta@lsil.com = = 1778 McCarthy Blvd. Phone: +1.408.954-3101 = = Milpitas CA 95035 Fax: +1.408.954-3599 = = WWW: http://www.lsilogic.com = = = = = = "Spatium...ultima confinia.... Haec sunt itinera astranavis = = Incepti. Huic missio quinque annorum: explorare mundos alienos novos, = = petere vitam novam novosque cultus, ire fortiter quo nemo iverit = = ante." = = = ============================================================================== From byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk Wed Jun 26 11:33:29 2002 From: byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk (Yan Bo) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] Re: Re: where to get these two ISO/IEC papers? Message-ID: <200206260233.g5Q2XPS09146@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Dear Ralph, Thanks a lot for your kindly help. Best Regards! Yan Bo ======= 2023-06-25 ======= >Dear Yan, all, > >Yan Bo wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I need the following two papers. > >> 1. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11, N1473, "Adhoc Group on Core Experiment on Error Resilience aspects of Mpeg-4 video, Description of Error Resilience Core Experiments" > >This is an output paper of the 37th MPEG meeting. It has (according to the resolutions) not been assigned to be published, and is hence accessible to MPEG members only. > >> 2. ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 MPEG96/1492, "Revised Error pattern Generation Programs for Core Experiments on Error Resilience". > >This is an input paper of the 37th MPEG meeting. It is not available anymore from MPEG, but might be availble from the authors (Toshio Miki, Toshiro Kawahara and Tomoyuki Ohya from NTT DoCoMo). > >Best regards, > >Ralph > >-- >Dipl.-Ing. Ralph Sperschneider | Phone: +49 9131 776 344 >FhG IIS-A | Fax: +49 9131 776 398 >Am Wolfsmantel 33 | mailto:sps@iis.fhg.de >D 91058 Erlangen | http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From D.Winne bristol.ac.uk Wed Jun 26 17:38:07 2002 From: D.Winne bristol.ac.uk (DA Winne, Electrical & Electronic Engineering) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] average quantization calculation (nQMB) Message-ID: Hi, Why is the 'nQMB' variable updated (increased by 2 times unity) twice when you encode a MB as intra in a P or B-frame? 'nQMB' counts (I think) the number of quantized macroblocks in a frame. Usually this is increased by unity when a MB is encoded as 'Inter' or 'Inter4V' so now why is it updated by 2 when it is encoded as 'Intra' in a P or B-frame. { codeMBTextureHeadOfPVOP in \sys\encoder\mbenc.cpp line 846 codeMBTextureHeadOfBVOP in \sys\encoder\mbenc.cpp line 1057 quantizeTextureIntraMB in \sys\encoder\mbenc.cpp line 1323 } Hoping for a fruitfull answer, Dominique ---------------------- D.Winne@bristol.ac.uk From kenny.chen intel.com Thu Jun 27 12:34:56 2002 From: kenny.chen intel.com (Chen, Kenny) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] maximum stream size for single picture for MPEG4 simple profile Message-ID: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26C92515@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> In H.263 standard, there is a BPPmaxKB, which defines: the number of bits created by coding any single picture shall not exceed a maximum value specified by the parameter BPPmaxKb which is measured in units of 1024 bits. So, there is a maximum stream size limit for a single picture, which will be a reference for developer for malloc the buffer. Is there a relative limit in MPEG4 simple profile, or just copy the same limit from H.263? In fact, in 14496-4 conformance streams, there is a stream which will use more bits than the BPPmaxKb that H.263 has defined? Rgds, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020627/733b6020/attachment.html From ramki emuzed.com Thu Jun 27 11:27:08 2002 From: ramki emuzed.com (Ramkishor Korada) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] maximum stream size for single picture for MPEG4 simple profile References: <957BD1C2BF3CD411B6C500A0C944CA26C92515@pdsmsx32.pd.intel.com> Message-ID: <013701c21d97$1b9545f0$1b0aa8c0@blr.emuzed.com> Hi, The max. limit is VBV size in case of MPEG-4 regards, ramkishor Architect - Video Multimedia Technologies Division Emuzed India Bangalore www.emuzed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chen, Kenny To: 'technotes@lists.m4if.org' Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2023 9:04 AM Subject: [M4IF Technotes] maximum stream size for single picture for MPEG4 simple profile In H.263 standard, there is a BPPmaxKB, which defines: the number of bits created by coding any single picture shall not exceed a maximum value specified by the parameter BPPmaxKb which is measured in units of 1024 bits. So, there is a maximum stream size limit for a single picture, which will be a reference for developer for malloc the buffer. Is there a relative limit in MPEG4 simple profile, or just copy the same limit from H.263? In fact, in 14496-4 conformance streams, there is a stream which will use more bits than the BPPmaxKb that H.263 has defined? Rgds, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/mp4-tech/attachments/20020627/9fdfaca5/attachment.html From garysull microsoft.com Wed Jun 26 23:13:32 2002 From: garysull microsoft.com (Gary Sullivan) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] maximum stream size for single picture for MPEG4 simple profile Message-ID: <0170DDAD0BADFA4CBEC3B55A0748DCCC08AA15B0@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk Thu Jun 27 16:49:43 2002 From: byan cse.cuhk.edu.hk (Yan Bo) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:21 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about the video_object_start_code Message-ID: <200206270749.g5R7nhS01378@cse.cuhk.edu.hk> Hi, I am now modifying the Mpeg-4 decoder for error recovery. I have a question about it.If the video_object_start_code or video_object_layer_start_code is corrupted by errors, what should I do? Since I can not find them, how can I locate the encoded Mpeg-4 bitstream? Many thanks for your kindly help! Best Regards! Yan Bo Email:byan@cse.cuhk.edu.hk From gautamkumar ti.com Thu Jun 27 16:11:45 2002 From: gautamkumar ti.com (Kumar, Gautam) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time Message-ID: Hi, I am new to quicktime format.We are trying to develop a software that will convert the h263 bitstream that our encoder produces to qt format so that qt players can play it.The present software that we have converts it to qt alright, but the image gets distorted when we try to drag the cursor at the bottom of the qt player.However I have seen qt films produced by Adobe Premire(I+P they claim),which does not get distorted even if we drag the cursor backward.How is this possible using qt file format. It will be great if someone can tell me how.All ideas and suggestions are welcome. Thanking you in advance. Regards Gautam From rkoenen intertrust.com Thu Jun 27 16:08:57 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59CF236A@exchange.epr.com> Dear Gautam, This is not a question for the M4IF Technotes list, which is restricted to technical questions pertaining to MPEG-4. Let's keep it that way. Kind Regards, Rob (Yes, I know H.263 *can* be very close to MPEG-4 Simple Visual and QT, depending on the version, *could* mean MP4) > -----Original Message----- > From: Kumar, Gautam [mailto:gautamkumar@ti.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2023 2:42 > To: M4if > Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time > > > Hi, > > I am new to quicktime format.We are trying to > develop a software that will convert the h263 > bitstream that our encoder produces to qt format so > that qt players can play it.The present software that > we have converts it to qt alright, but the image gets > distorted when we try to drag the cursor at the bottom > of the qt player.However I have seen qt films produced > by Adobe Premire(I+P they claim),which does not get > distorted even if we drag the cursor backward.How is > this possible using qt file format. > > It will be great if someone can tell me how.All ideas > and suggestions are welcome. > > Thanking you in advance. > > Regards > Gautam > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From SSG14 JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU Thu Jun 27 15:55:49 2002 From: SSG14 JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU (SACHIN GANGAPUTRA) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] GMC enable Encode Message-ID: <3e07a3a3cc.3a3cc3e07a@jhumail.jhu.edu> Hi, I'm using the reference MoMuSys-FPDAM1-1.0-000608 to encode with GMC enabled. The last few lines of my configuration file read as follows: 1|1|1 {VBV Parameters: bitrate|vbv_buffer_size|vbv_occupancy } 2 {SPRITE USAGE (0:no, 1:static, 2:GMC} 1 {Number of Sprite Points} 0 {Warping accuracy (0 -- 1/2, 1 -- 1/4, 2 -- 1/8, 3 -- 1/16)} 0 {lighting_change_in_sprite is FALSE} With sprite usage set to 0, things work perfectly. With is set to 2, the encoder crashes. Am I missing some arguments that need to be set? Any help in this direction will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sachin Gangaputra, Graduate Student, Johns Hopkins Univ. From chl math.uni-bonn.de Fri Jun 28 22:33:20 2002 From: chl math.uni-bonn.de (Christoph Lampert) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 hardware decoder card Message-ID: Hi, I just read at tomshardware about the REALmagic Xcard using EM8475 chip. It claims to decode Advanced Simple Profile except for Quarterpel and GMC. http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/xcard.htm Do you anything know about compatability of this chip/card and driver support? And what about license issues? Christoph -- Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature wurde maschi- Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 From rkoenen intertrust.com Fri Jun 28 14:29:15 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] MPEG-4 hardware decoder card Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5B2F@exchange.epr.com> Thanks Cristoph, > I just read at tomshardware about the REALmagic Xcard > using EM8475 chip. It claims to decode Advanced Simple > Profile except for Quarterpel and GMC. > > http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/xcard.htm It's great news to hear more and more MPEG-4 products becoming available. Also note that you can download SigmaDesign's Advanced Simple Codec here: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/MPEG4_video_encoder.htm As for your license question: the click-through license states that the user is responsible for any license fees. I am not a lawyer, so I won't make any statements as to how safe this is. (but I did download and will install shortly :-) Rob ps: A word of caution about calling a decoder that does not do 1/4 pel and GMC (yet) "Advanced Simple". At WEMP-4 it was clear that there are many decoders that do AS without something - the "something" being GMC, 1/4 pel and/or B frames. These decoders do not yet comply with the standard and are therefore not yet interoperable at the Advanced Simple Profile. They *are* compliant with Simple Profile, though, and might also be called Simple + GMC and/or B frames and/or 1/4 pel. > > Do you anything know about compatability of this chip/card > and driver support? And what about license issues? > > Christoph > > -- > Christoph H. Lampert chl@math.uni-bonn.de | Diese Signature > wurde maschi- > Beringstr. 6, Raum 14 Tel. (0228) 73-2948 | nell erstellt und bedarf > Sprechstunden: keine, aber meistens da | keiner > Unterschrift. AZ 27B-6 > > _______________________________________________ > Technotes mailing list > Technotes@lists.m4if.org > http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > From gautamkumar ti.com Sat Jun 29 11:39:33 2002 From: gautamkumar ti.com (Kumar, Gautam) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time Message-ID: Dear Rob/members, Sorry for sending it to M4IF. but i got the reply from experts over here only :) thanks very much to Magnus Hoem [magnus.hoem@popwire.com] who suggested me to to insert some keyframes in the stss-atom and it worked. warm regards Gautam >-----Original Message----- >From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] >Sent: Friday, June 28, 2023 3:39 AM >To: Kumar, Gautam; M4if >Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quick time > > >Dear Gautam, > >This is not a question for the M4IF Technotes list, which >is restricted to technical questions pertaining to MPEG-4. >Let's keep it that way. > >Kind Regards, >Rob > >(Yes, I know H.263 *can* be very close to MPEG-4 Simple >Visual and QT, depending on the version, *could* mean MP4) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kumar, Gautam [mailto:gautamkumar@ti.com] >> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2023 2:42 >> To: M4if >> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I am new to quicktime format.We are trying to >> develop a software that will convert the h263 >> bitstream that our encoder produces to qt format so >> that qt players can play it.The present software that >> we have converts it to qt alright, but the image gets >> distorted when we try to drag the cursor at the bottom >> of the qt player.However I have seen qt films produced >> by Adobe Premire(I+P they claim),which does not get >> distorted even if we drag the cursor backward.How is >> this possible using qt file format. >> >> It will be great if someone can tell me how.All ideas >> and suggestions are welcome. >> >> Thanking you in advance. >> >> Regards >> Gautam >> _______________________________________________ >> Technotes mailing list >> Technotes@lists.m4if.org >> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes >> > From rkoenen intertrust.com Sat Jun 29 23:23:25 2002 From: rkoenen intertrust.com (Rob Koenen) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time Message-ID: <3C124172E7FDD511B510000347426D59AF5B3E@exchange.epr.com> No problem Gautam, I am glad your questions got answered. Just wanted to restate the list purpose and policy Kind Regards, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Kumar, Gautam [mailto:gautamkumar@ti.com] > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2023 22:10 > To: Rob Koenen; M4if > Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quick time > > > Dear Rob/members, > > Sorry for sending it to M4IF. > but i got the reply from experts over here only :) > thanks very much to Magnus Hoem [magnus.hoem@popwire.com] who > suggested me > to > to insert some keyframes in the stss-atom and it worked. > > warm regards > Gautam > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Rob Koenen [mailto:rkoenen@intertrust.com] > >Sent: Friday, June 28, 2023 3:39 AM > >To: Kumar, Gautam; M4if > >Subject: RE: [M4IF Technotes] quick time > > > > > >Dear Gautam, > > > >This is not a question for the M4IF Technotes list, which > >is restricted to technical questions pertaining to MPEG-4. > >Let's keep it that way. > > > >Kind Regards, > >Rob > > > >(Yes, I know H.263 *can* be very close to MPEG-4 Simple > >Visual and QT, depending on the version, *could* mean MP4) > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Kumar, Gautam [mailto:gautamkumar@ti.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2023 2:42 > >> To: M4if > >> Subject: [M4IF Technotes] quick time > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I am new to quicktime format.We are trying to > >> develop a software that will convert the h263 > >> bitstream that our encoder produces to qt format so > >> that qt players can play it.The present software that > >> we have converts it to qt alright, but the image gets > >> distorted when we try to drag the cursor at the bottom > >> of the qt player.However I have seen qt films produced > >> by Adobe Premire(I+P they claim),which does not get > >> distorted even if we drag the cursor backward.How is > >> this possible using qt file format. > >> > >> It will be great if someone can tell me how.All ideas > >> and suggestions are welcome. > >> > >> Thanking you in advance. > >> > >> Regards > >> Gautam > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Technotes mailing list > >> Technotes@lists.m4if.org > >> http://lists.m4if.org/mailman/listinfo/technotes > >> > > > From wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp Sun Jun 30 11:26:49 2002 From: wuks bhnec.nec.co.jp (wuks@bhnec.nec.co.jp) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:08:22 2003 Subject: [M4IF Technotes] about AC/DC prediction Message-ID: when AC/DC prediction ,how to select ABC's QDC value ? is it QDC=dc//8? whrer dc obtained after DCT. if this is true, but how about nonlinear quantisation of DC when MPEG quantisation mathod used? thank very much for your help!